A testament to the pursuit of profit over truth, fueled by intellectual dishonesty and cowardice
The email exchanges below will tell the story of what happens when a self-satisfied, profit-oriented member of the UFOCI pretends to want to know the truth about the Billy Meier UFO contacts, until he sees that the truth would crush him, his pretenses and…book sales. Unaware of what the listeners already determined about his credibility and competence, he further reveals his contempt for their intelligence in the second debate.
He deals a death blow to his own legacy, revealing what a complete sham the UFO field and its supposed “experts” really are, and why the topic is often deservedly marginalized by rational, thinking people.
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Stan,
Let me be a bit more direct with you now, after I’ve spent four hours of my time trying to engage in intelligent debates with you, which included providing you with links to all of the documentation that would certainly suffice…had you truly been interested in the Meier case and it’s actual significance. In fact, every so-called “point” you raise in your terse response is answered in the Meier case, you simply never bothered to look. You did take a lot of time attacking a man who’s no longer living and who couldn’t speak in his own defense, of course.
Unfortunately, you were also too lazy, self-satisfied and contemptuous of the facts to bother. So you prefer to default to help continue the actual UFO cover-up – which is now solely about the Meier case – and this cover-up will become an indelible part of your legacy, to your own family and generations of people to come.
I’ll post the results of the listener’s poll for our first debate in case you didn’t see them either:
I don’t think it changed in your favor after the second one. You were simply received and evaluated as someone with…no credibility. I doubt that this response of yours will do much to enhance it, or show you were better prepared, sincere, or wanting to continue to anything more than promote your books, chuckle and try to cover up the painful facts that showed you to be completely out of your league.
We know that you tried to involve yourself in the original investigation but were told by Stevens and the team members that no one in the UFO community would be part of the actual investigation, but only qualified, independent experts such as those from NASA, JPL, USGS, etc., who indeed analyzed and authenticated Meier’s evidence.
You continue to promote your career and books based on an utterly unprovable case, with zero accessible evidence, yet you have the absolutely cynical arrogance to try to be dismissive of volumes of independently analyzed and authenticated physical and informational evidence from the only actual, still ongoing UFO contact case.
Frankly, this exhibits a level of contempt for the truth and for the intelligence of all interested parties which, as the listener’s poll demonstrates, was obvious to all.
Of course I didn’t ask you to be “convinced”, I asked that you would show the intellectual curiosity, honesty – and integrity – to pursue the truth. Instead you opted to try to protect your ego, to try to assuage the nagging realization that your years of attack and dismissiveness of the Meier case were ill spent. You didn’t have the courage and strength of character to actually investigate the case because you put profit over principles.
You’ve aligned yourself with the camp of the delusional “alien abduction” proponents, etc., etc. when you could have made a huge contribution to real human knowledge and even the safety of generations of people to come, which may include your own descendants.
When push comes to shove, many people choose mediocrity, compromise, etc., for the sake of personal profit, as you again demonstrate.
Despite the many emails and comments I received, after both shows, that you were transparently inept, posturing and insincere, I actually responded with optimism that you’d see – at this late point in your own life – that it wasn’t too late to champion an open investigation into the Meier case by the community in which you spend your time and make your money.
My optimism was misplaced of course. You performed like a jovial huckster who dodged and avoided any and every opportunity to behave like a credible scientist. You were absolutely no different than the kind of business-as-usual “scientists” that clog up the current educational system and who also have no interest in the truth, for all the obvious reasons.
You were given ample opportunity to create a real, lasting contribution to finding the truth…and you blew it off in favor of milking whatever profits remain from selling tales of limaginary “aliens”.
You fooled no one but yourself.
Authorized American Media Representative
The Billy Meier Contacts
youtube.com/c/MichaelHorn812
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On Nov 13, 2015, at 11:44 AM, Stan <fsphys@bellaliant.net> wrote:
Michael:
I must refuse the invitation as I am not convinced. You keep mentioning lights in the sky. I care not at all about lights in the sky.I am concerned with physical trace cases, multiple witness radar visual cases,advanced propulsion technology,large scale scientific studies, clear proof of government withholding information about UFOs. You seem not to be concerned about such matters.Has the Meier Defense community made available samples of ET materials for testing and published their results?. Many have sent comments about the absence of real proof about predictions.
Stan Friedman
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—– Original Message —–
From: Michael Horn
To: Taro
Cc: Stan
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 9:58 PM
Subject: Re: Meier Debate
Hi Taro & Stan,
I appreciate participating in this conversation, as a follow up to last night’s show, and I’d like to move this along effectively as well.
Stan, as I stated last night, it’s time that the Meier case was the focal point of open discussion and examination by the UFO community, MUFON – and more importantly any and all scientists who admit an interest in the UFO topic – anything less would only perpetuate the cover-up. (The real main culprits in the UFO cover-up are in the UFO community and…industry.)
To that end I’d like us to arrange an event wherein I present the Meier case and its evidence and any and all credible parties have the opportunity to question, challenge, etc. It’s that simple. No more runaround nonsense with the lights-in-the-sky-chasers and all of the unsubstantiated claims, etc., they churn out for fun and mainly profit.
As I also said last night, the confirmed discovery of intelligent extraterrestrial life would be the most important event in all of science and human history…exceeded only by contact between extraterrestrials and the people of Earth.
And it’s rather easy to demonstrate that the Meier case singularly fits that description.
I invite Taro to assist in this process so that this event is created and effected at the earliest possible time. What Taro accurately expresses below is indicative of the factual, impenetrably credible information, analyses, etc., that make the Meier case singularly authentic.
What we do – or don’t do – now will be an indelible part of our legacy and what we bequeath to future generations, familial and for the rest of humanity.
Let’s do it.
MH
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On Nov 12, 2015, at 1:28 PM, Taro <taro.istok@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello again, Stan. I managed to catch your debate with Michael Horn last night. During the show you mentioned that
“we have an interesting case here” and that “we need a higher level of discussion of people, the scientific community and especially the journalistic community to do their job, get at the facts, put it in front of the public”
I’m not quite clear on where the subject of the debate, the Meier evidence fits into your “Cosmic Watergate” analogy. Should it be dismissed or studied further? If I had to guess it would be that you were being deliberately vague. Is this accurate? Please understand, I am not attempting to solicit a stamp of approval from you. But I genuinely believe Meier’s physical evidence can hold up to the most critical and meticulous scrutiny. The evidence speaks for itself. And it would appear you may have suggested an interest in verifying this for yourself. Failing to seize this opportunity for a second time now could be the biggest mistake you leave behind. After becoming more familiar now with the sheer volume of material this one, disabled man has presented, what do you honestly think is the probability of hoax? And if it’s not, how will you be regarded by future generations for failing to take action when you had the chance?
We all agree, Roswell happened. The two primary distinctions between the Roswell and the Meier evidence are
A)
– The US government maintains a tight, heavy lid on the Roswell evidence.
– The Meier evidence, although suppressed and distorted is readily available for the rational mind to study.
B)
– Roswell was an accident. There was a crash, there were bodies, numerous accidental witnesses.
– The Meier case is intentional and controlled. The nature of the evidence will be as disparate as the case itself and expecting otherwise is not thinking clearly.
It is not very likely the USG will ever willingly release the Roswell evidence. So, unless we have another(even higher level) Snowden-type disclosure, it is very likely a dead-end. I can only imagine how much more careful those in charge are with the Roswell evidence.
The Meier evidence, although not nearly as cut and dry is out in the open. It may appear tedious to sift through the mountain of material at first but as one spends time with already established analyses it becomes easier to separate the valid scientific work from the garbage. Critical observations become second nature for a guy like me and already should be for a guy like you. In any case, much of the work is already done. All that is left for someone like you is to review this scientific work and offer a scientific evaluation: Either there are flaws in these analyses or they are sound. You appear to have placed a disproportionate amount of focus on material that cannot by themselves be proved either way. This is not scientific. At the same time, you have quickly dismissed physical evidence based on a very limited frame of reference.
Take Bruce Maccabee’s analysis of the Pendulum Film, for example. Although he very thoroughly explained pendular motion he did nothing to address the possibility that ET’s thousands of years advanced could have mimicked this movement intentionally or the possibility that they had very good reason to do so. By ignoring these very plausible scenarios his analysis was quite simply incomplete. My video comparisons(https://youtu.be/SNlmFfb0ADs & https://youtu.be/gMFqSxX1b-g) clearly illustrate the practical difficulties with the suspended model theory. Rhal Zahi’s detailed analysis goes much further by measuring the periods, proving a model setup would necessarily require a constantly moving node in the vertical. The irregular vertical(yaw) axis of the disc prove a suspended model would also require node movement along the horizontal. How likely do you think it would be for such a suspended disc to remain laterally stable? It has never been duplicated as such. On top of this, there are numerous other unexplained events:
– smooth accelerations and decelerations with no obvious pulls
– a gradually INCREASING conical pendulum with no obvious pulls
– a smooth, 270º turn with zero disruption to lateral stability
– treetop movement AFTER disc passage with no disruption to disc movement or stability
– object fading out then back into visibility(x2), simultaneously appearing in two locations across multiple frames
– an unexplained burn-like anomaly during both of these “jumps”
– a noticeable difference in blur level from closest to farthest position from camera
To base your conclusions on the Pendulum Film entirely on Maccabee’s analysis is very much lacking in factual considerations. This is not scientific. I hope you choose to take a closer look.
I’m including Michael into this conversation since he would be the very best person to help arrange any further analysis of the Meier material should you choose to firmly commit to this higher level of discussion you mentioned last night. Remember, the Roswell evidence is safely locked away. But that which is out in the open is what the “powers that be” would have good reason to go to great lengths to hide by encouraging the muddying of the waters, so to speak.
So? Will you take a closer look at the science?
Taro Istok
I have expected this outcome, sadly it was the right feeling. Never mind, Stanton and others have the right to choose to go blindly through this world…
Sometimes reality is a cause for a strange effect on me, music comes to mind and in particular, it becomes a way for me to remember to be neutral/positive. If this comment is not appropriate I’m sure Michael won’t post it, while I may be a wierd Al, I’m not THE wierd Al. The Dire Straits song “Money for Nothing” came to mind when I read this update, I hope it has the same effect on you as it did for me.
Now listen here bozo, what ya think you’re doing
You might as well be part of CSETI
That ain’t science who ya think you’re fooling
Truth don’t mean nothing selling fantasies
Now that ain’t science, I see what cha doing
Let me tell ya, we’re not all that dumb
We can ya raise your, middle finger
We can see you sitting on your thumbs
It seems you’d rather have microwave weapons
Multiple warheads, and nuclear deliveries
You’d rather have these, incinerators
And fill your pockets selling fantasies
You talk about, aliens, crashing in the desert
Put it in a book you’ll be a millionaire
Pretty soon you’ll have your own jet airplane
Another scientist who really doesn’t care
It seems you’d rather have microwave weapons
Multiple warheads and nuclear deliveries
You’d rather have these, incinerators
And fill you pockets selling fantasies
It seems you’d rather have microwave weapons
Multiple warheads and nuclear deliveries
You’d rather have these, incinerators
And fill your pockets selling fantasies
We should have learned, but we haven’t so far
We should have recognized, things to come
Look at what you’re doing, you stick it to your fellow man
All so you can have some fun
Man that’s out there, what’s that you say?
You’re hearing voices?
The truth will never come, from the powers that be
That ain’t science, what cha think you’re doing
Truth don’t mean nothing selling fantasies
It seems you’d rather have microwave weapons
Multiple warheads and nuclear deliveries
You’d rather have these, incinerators
And fill your pockets selling fantasies
Listen here
Now that ain’t science, who ya think you’re fooling
You might as well be part of CSETI
That ain’t science, what cha think you’re doing
Truth don’t mean nothing selling fantasies
Truth don’t mean nothing selling fantasies
Yeah, like, that ain’t working
I want my, I want my, I want my fantasies
I want my, I want my, I want my fantasies
Maybe get a blister on your counting thumb ?
It should have been mentioned that the Meier contact notes address the Roswell incident. Some may remember that Meier about 20 years ago has ask about the Roswell case and he Meier was told they the Plejarens could not tell Billy any info. about the case because it would put him in a life threating situation. Now about 2 years ago Meier had ask again about the Roswell case and the Plejarens told Billy everything about the case and that there were No Ex-terrestrials captured they were Androids programed to fly exploratory ships. Do Not hold to the dates look it up for our selfs.
Hi, Michael.
I think sometimes we pay too much attention to debunkers and skeptics of the Meier case. They make a lot of noise. But if we look at the statistics, where 98% of the 17,500 listeners of the show said you won the debate, it shows people are starting to listen. And events like the one in France shows how important is to listen to the warnings. I hope we, as humanity, wake up before it is too late.
Hi Rhal,
I agree and it’s important to me to use every opportunity to inform, including debates like that where my intention was to get Friedman to at least do what he said he would and actually look at the evidence. He had no intention of doing so of course because he’s actually complicit in the cover-up and apart of the UFO circus. But we tried anyway.
I think it was a valuable exercise in exposing the dishonesty and cowardice so common in the “scientific community”. It proved even scientists will avoid science if it happens to suit their self-serving priorities.
Very true. Static Friedman is quite content reading others failed attempts at debunking. He will always take the easy road, just because it’s easier. No wonder I’ve never had the heart to read his stupid books, why would I believe anything a coward says? He’s too busy having choreographed plays with mufon because that’s where the money is. Plus his 2 books with Kathleen Marden, he’s probably mad because Ptaah said the Betty and Barney Hill abduction was not true and Stan decided he knew better than Ptaah. The overinflated ego really stops real investigation in its tracks.
You trounced him in both debates Michael. Stanton gets a big thumbs down for not doing his homework and relying on lying Mahesh. Stanton is not as smart as he thinks he is and proved this fact in the debate.
Regarding Mahesh, I think Taro rebutted his inaccuracies very well but I’ll add one more of many. Mahesh likes to say that Meier plagiarized the ozone damage information in 1975. But the Rat Catcher, as FIGU refers to him, neglected to notice this:
Open Letter to all Human Beings of Earth (July 5th, 1951)
20. Not only wars, terror, destruction and annihilation with thousand-fold deaths and hundreds of thousands of murdered people will mark the future but also a monstrous overpopulation will be to blame as all natural laws will get thrown out of kilter.
21. Through the gilt of the people, all storms will assume increasing and more violent forms, such as hail storms, blizzards and flooding rains, as however also the ozone-layer will become very dangerously damaged.
…and these from 1958:
100) Also, when nature defends itself against the human insanity of the planetary destruction, the Earth will become increasingly naked and infertile, and the human beings are to blame that the air will burn, because the ozone layer will slowly be destroyed.
124) And through the fault of the human being, who sluices chlorofluorocarbons into the atmosphere, the Earth will burn, and melanoma and non-melanoma skin cancer will take hold and demand many deaths, and all that because, through human irrationality, the majority of the ozone layer, which protects against the rays of the sun, will be destroyed, whereby the atmosphere will be like a curtain full of holes and the strong and burning light of the Sun will burn the skin, and will irreparably blind the eyes of many human beings.
Mahesh is simply a lying, disgrace to humanity for deliberately spreading disinformation about the real…truth.
Plus, my guess is he still feels snubbed from being shut out of the original investigation. Like a jilted lover. Amazing how even a great-grandfather can act like a child. Either that or he’s too busy counting his money and all that talk of concern for the future of this planet was pure lip service.
Hi Michael. Great debate. It really made me see how foolish an educated person can be especially one calling himself a scientist when the big EGO and MAMMON stand in the way. Tis very sad:(. You got a lot of great information out for listeners to THINK about. Thank you for all the efforts you put into helping humanity to wake up and practice self responsibility. Its a long rough road ahead of us all. 🙂
Thanks Julia, nice to hear from you. A long rough road indeed.
NOTE: Comments were received from this person, however, their email address was false, their identity unverifiable and hence the comments won’t be posted.
Since there are increasing numbers of obvious trolls, spammers, etc., I will take the trouble to verify the identities of new participants, time consuming as it is.
In response to Timothy Conrads claim, ” if this man (Billy) was serious, he would produce proof for the masses”, I will quote from “And Still They Fly”, on page 151, Chapter 9- Why Have the Extraterrestrial Flying Objects Not Landed Publicly?
it says:
“In 1976, the Pleiadians tested many people of earth, especially the ufological circles, to determine their love for the recognition of truth. The results were devastating and brought the bitter realization that earth humanity is quite obviously not mature enough for a public landing. According to Semjase:
SEMJASE: The spirit of many earth people is still small and confined by religious slavery. In their limited minds, some of them (after the landing) would honor us extraterrestrials as heavenly gods, just as they did in earlier times.
In fact, whenever and wherever extraterrestrial intelligencies have landed on earth, they have been honored and worshipped as godly beings. In this manner, earth man turned over all responsibility for his own destiny to the presumed astronaut gods.”
So, talking to Tim, these are just some of the reasons why forcing proof onto the masses isn’t such a good idea.
To keep its heavy funding, the Military Industrial Complex(MIC) with its future bogeyman(evil alien invasion), finds it necessary for Stanton to, ‘stay the course’. The terrorists, created in proxy to advance the war machine in various countries, will eventually be minimized by the publics awareness of its true benefactors that bankroll it. This will make Stantons steadfast position priceless to the MIC. But probably, I’m guessing, he has hi$ price.
I think his position was clear from the beginning and MH used it for all its worth. Well played sir.
Thanks, I did what I could with someone who indeed had his agenda set…long ago, actually.
I found it odd that Stanton read the analysis and watched videos made by the skeptics but didn’t apparently read the 40 page analysis and watch videos that Michael provided him. What kind of objective scientist would only look at items from one side and not the other and then have the gall to do a debate knowing he would be asked about the material provided?? Not a very good/honest one that’s for sure.
As you said above Michael, Stanton had his agenda set long ago. If he didn’t, he would have at least actually reviewed the material you provided to him before your 2nd debate. He would already know that metal samples were analyzed by Vogel who published his analysis.
I think it’s safe to say that he’s in the pocket of the disinformation specialists, including MUFON, Open Minds, etc.
What better way to distract, disinform and keep people stupid about that only authentic, still ongoing UFO contact case than to have a “nuclear physicist” blather on about…Roswell, the GOVERNMENT’S favorite, dead-end, go nowhere, UFO case?
Yeah but do you think he was one among many Ufologists who was paid a cool $1m to provide decoy, distract and trash?
Or was it his genuine lifelong passion?
Or a combination of both?
I wonder what the Plejaren’s take on Stan?
No word from Ptaah so maybe it’s not all that important
I don’t know…but the effect is all the same…disinformation at a traitorous level, especially when he pulls that denial act after four hours of online conversation and being provided with every bit of info an honest person could ask for. Take a breath and realize that this man has decided to cover up the Meier case, suppress an open discussion of it in a community of supposedly interested people, in which he’s endlessly plugging his books on basically make-believe UFO nonsense.
Oh obviously we’d be used to these slippery antics by now
I get it everyday don’t worry.
It still perplexes me though after all my waking time here on earth how people can turn into a manipulative, calculating, duplicitous, cunning, scheming, ill intended, self regarding, dishonest, characterless, amoral, immoral and two faced beasts I’ll never know.
No wonder people are sick and tired of one another and rather keep to themselves because of all the B’S that comes with dealing with people.
I wouldn’t rule it out. But if true, there doesn’t appear to be much protocol. Any scientific expert who willingly chooses to get involved with the Meier case, and agreeing to participate in even one debate would naturally apply, knows(or SHOULD know) that they are agreeing to one of two choices: They must either ENDORSE the science backing the case or they must REFUTE it. Stan has done neither. So, either he missed the memo or is a complete fool. This is why many whom MH has contacted quickly recoil once approached. They are much more aware of this choice than Stan apparently was.
Curious: Where have you heard of this $1m payout?
Well Taro its very old information from Disclosure project eyewitness testimony.
This I first heard about back in 2005.
I don’t have my sources nor any reference right now as it was long time ago but if you are willing to spend considerable amount of time sifting through all the Greer’s books, articles, videos of eyewitness testimony, his speeches and so forth you will definitely come across it somewhere.
If memory serves me correct you can get a third hand account from Dyson’s old website in one of his articles.
Try the wayback machine.
Last time I checked his website was relegated to oblivion from wayback.
You could try though
I’m not saying it isn’t true. Just wondered if a paper trail was ever established.
Basically Billy and the Plejaren have covered basically the entire ground that not much else would be forthcoming in the future.
If there was indeed a nuclear bomb going off in UK or something that serious he may come up with a new bulletin on world affairs but truly they have covered so many topics and subjects that I foresee a special library like the library of congress being built by our progeny to honour Billy and the Plejaren
Taro I loved to know as well.
Obviously there is so much B’S out there that first thing you have to establish is real proof in documentation form but even this leaves much to be desired.
Sometimes circumstantial evidence and testimonies of people are good enough for me.
I mean who among us here have seen a real Plejaren in person right?!
So I wouldn’t be at all surprised if a rogue part of the CIA has not only funded the disinfo campaign regarding UFOs but bought off some prominent Ufologists like Stan to do their dirty deed.
Hell some have even been threatened to do so.
Bigelow’s intrigues regarding MUFON is a classsic example.
Oh, I don’t doubt that it’s happening. The way Stevens’ team was hassled by the alphabet agencies, the spook’s letter, the amount of money the US gov spends on military and intelligence, the NSA caught with their pants down— there are many signs the “UFO community” is very likely “encouraged” to participate in the cover up. But without a paper trail it’s essentially speculation. Where’s Anonymous when you need them.
I probably should have included this link in my article, as it shows that I’ve tried to engage Friedman in an examination of the case for a long time:
http://www.theyfly.com/An_Open_Letter_to_Stanton.html
Even before that of course. As a scientist he could have had an influential voice – at the very least in the UFO community – and woken those lights chasers up. Instead he cared only about his own ego and profits from pushing his books, etc. In retrospect, these people in the UFOCI will be seen for the actual oppressors of the truth that they were and are.
Thanks, MH. I hadn’t seen this yet. Friedman really has no excuses. I think this link you included in that email deserves republishing too:
http://www.prweb.com/releases/2010/08/prweb4436884.htm
Good idea, Taro, I’ll put it on the list.
I’m confused !!!??? ( witch is appernt to anyone that has read any of my previous posts ) however putting that aside for now. What good is it to convince freedman or mufon or any of the other so called experts of Billy and friends? Will the golden gates of ufology filng open and everyone suddenly come around? If they did at this point, all that they are would turn to dust. You got ask yourself, why is it that some buckthoothed moonshiner that woke up butt naked in a cornfield, by the local authorities. Of course the most logical explanation is “I was abducted” and they left me here. He is believed and writes a book. Then appears on C2C and tells his story and sells a million books. It’s the golden microphone that sells all of this BS to the public. Freedman and the like will fade the others are lining up to sell more ufo BS. If C2C was really looking for the truth they would have MH on every other night. But that will not happen because it would take out ninety percent of the guests. Because the billy info would expose them all as the lairs that they are. Then all of that pretty money would go away and C2C. I think we need a billy radio program, 24hr billy. Well one can hope, Salome Robert.
Michael,
You did a tremendous job in your debate/discussion with Stan. You were very clear about your intentions and the evidence you had to support your case. One could not say the same for Stan – the grandfather of Ufology? – who either spent his time asking somewhat valid but not especially critical questions (did Billy spend time in jail?), or repeating other people’s counterarguments – actually, more hinting at supposed counter arguments, without being able to elaborate whatsoever. Actually, I was quite surprised that Stan knew so little about the case, regarding names, events, the evidence, etc. … which is why he kept having to ask you questions about basics. (e.g. Who is Semjase?) Why would he enter a debate about the Meier case when he had no real critique of it?
You presented the evidence regarding Meier’s photos of Asket’s beamship in India, the Indian newspaper confirming the events, the girl who is a former UN Ambassador confirming the case, etc. These are photos which are still available, eye-witnesses from highly credible sources who have no reason to lie, independent third party news sources, all converging, mutually buttressed evidence — this is the stuff that cannot be faked. It would hold up in the court of law and no other case has come close to presenting that kind of evidence. And yet, Stan seemed remarkably underwhelmed by that level of evidence, which says more about his his scientific acumen than the evidence.
Stan spent most of his time trying to figure out what words to use “Do I say ‘Meier group’ or ‘Meier camp'” or “I guess I shouldn’t use the words Indian. I mean man from India” — he was rather inarticulate and bumbling. His lack of facility with words wouldn’t disprove the content of his counter argument, but he did not have a counter argument, and I can’t imagine how someone could be afforded such accolades as “the grandfather of Ufology” if he was so totally inept at both speaking and critical thinking.
You have motivated me to purchase some of Wendell Steven’s original English translations of the contact notes (pre-internet age) to see what I can dig up for myself regarding Meier’s predictions that were published (copyrighted) before they occurred. Thanks,
Sean
Thanks Sean, I’m actually forwarding your comment to Stan and Rob.
Also, please use your last name too with future comments.
Very well put. Especially the part about misplaced “accolades”, Stan’s lack of “scientific acumen” and his ineptitude “at both speaking and critical thinking”.
Michael , Is there any way i can speak to you about some of the things in relation to the meier case ? I’m a little confused but i do certainly trust and believe what he has said and i have no reason to doubt him as most of what he has said has been proven he in my opinion is being 100% honest and if there are things he hasnt said it was because of his safety . is it possible for me to ask you a few questions ?
Daniel,
Feel free to either post them here i appropriate blogs or email them to me and I’ll respond as soon as possible.
Such a crying shame this story. Stan Friedman has contributed so much to UFOlogy, but has so shot himself in the foot with this. A real pity the UFO community can’t recognise and rally around the Meier case as the leading UFO contact case of the last century.
Quite so Jonathan. Also, please use your full name for posting further comments.
Thanks.
Following the UFO community thread, Michael what’s your opinion on Phil Schneider?
Phil tends to stand out to me from the others on the UFO circuit since he
(a) like Billy, had people who were prepared to corroborate aspects of his story, particularly with regard to the physical impact of his experiences on his body / health
(b) like Billy, brought physical evidence to the table
(c) like Billy, put his own life on the line to bring information out into the public domain
(d) stood apart from the UFO community by confirming that Billy’s contacts were authentic (indeed it was Phil’s recommendation that led me to study Billy’s case and in time come to the conclusion it was true).
I deeply respect Billy’s work and Phil’s legacy and so find it difficult that at face value Phil’s testimony doesn’t sit well with the contact reports. Having quietly reflected upon this for a while now I believe I’m reaching a landing with regard to my own conclusions, but I would be interested to hear your thoughts / opinion.
Kind regards
Jonathan
I am unaware of anything re Schneider that is even remotely comparable to Meier and his evidence.
Michael,
In your debate with Stan, you brought up a very interesting point about the Meier case that I wanted to touch on. It went right past Stan, naturally, like everything else, but your own verbal description of it was as follows:
“The thing that hangs like a sword over the head of the case… it’s been expressed many times, and can be explained as: If these people (Plejaran) wanted to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt – not a reasonable doubt, but a shadow of a doubt – that they were real and Billy was having these contacts, they would not have had to ….” – and I’ll paraphrase the rest – dribble out the evidence over 70 years; they could just appear over major cities in 5 minutes and say ‘Here we are.’ However, what they realized is that if they give every last piece of proof in this manner, they would essentially violate the reality of earth humans in very painful ways….”
This is a subtle but over-arching point about the Plejaran strategy. James Deardoff has written about it as well. It is the central point of his “plausible deniability” hypothesis. I brought up his plausible deniability hypothesis before with you on this site, and you seemed to think that the hypothesis was incorrect or had been invalidated by Meier, but actually, it is in essence exactly what you are talking about. I’ll quote Deardoff:
“The inference is that, by not providing sufficient evidence to make their reality totally obvious to scientists and society in general, the ETs are following a strategy or programme that avoids inflicting catastrophic shock to society as a whole, which any overt contact could cause, while preparing us for eventual open contact. This could say something about their level of ethics.” (Deardoff 2005)
It is no doubt very tempting for newcomers to the Meier case to shout: “Well this is ridiculous; the ETs would just show themselves so there would be no shred of a doubt for anyone. But they didn’t, how convenient, so Billy Meier is lying.” Deardoff actually walks through, in his publication, the full cascade of negative consequences that might ensue were such a mass ET sighting/revelation to occur: how earth humanity’s military structures might respond violently, how entire socioeconomic and religious structures would be destabilized, etc. etc. Actually, it’s a fantastic, well-thought out analysis. (http://www.ufoskeptic.org/JBIS.pdf)
Understanding why the Plejaran are using this slow-paced strategy instead of a mass revelation is key. They are trying to slowly condition earth humans for ultimately accepting the existence of life beyond earth, which is in accord with their non-interference policies and allows earth humans the chance to reason out and ultimately make the discovery themselves.
So I think you and Deardoff generally agree on “plausible deniability” or “the sword that hangs over the case.” But the good news is, it is not a sword. It doesn’t damn the case at all, when examined carefully. It’s an intelligent approach for the Plejaran to reveal themselves in this manner, which is what we’d expect from intelligent lifeforms who had our best interests at heart.
Hi Sean,
I think it’s mainly a sword over the head of the skeptics. Re plausible deniability (PD), etc., the thing is that in this case we didn’t just have a few isolated incidents, ambiguous or cryptic messages, etc., we’ve had this steady stream of ongoing information, events, prophetic accuracy, etc. Now I may not be defining PD exactly correctly but a rational person isn’t going to continually try to fudge this in their minds, only people with deeply held religious beliefs, fears, profit-over-truth, etc., which I don’t think the case/info has ever tried to cater to or accommodate, while on the other hand of course it’s never tried to force into acceptance either.
Yes, there are things like the Pendulum UFO, the WCUFO but they’ve been clarified with the availability of better technology and truth seeking people who’ve applied it. So I don’t know if it’s a matter of terms or interpretation, etc.
Hi Michael,
Yes I think we may be largely be playing semantics around the term “plausible deniability.” As Deardoff explains it, it does not really mean that the Plejaran are trying to play games with our understanding about the Meier case. His theory mostly alludes to the fact that humans have to figure out for themselves whether to believe the case or not – the responsibility is on them, and the conclusions and discovery will be their own. If you read Deardorff’s publication, which I quoted in part and linked in full, I think you would understand his explanation this way as well. But that’s not necessary, and I won’t force the point, especially if the term “plausible deniability” is either confusing or just sort of unpalatable. The term doesn’t matter and I think we already agree about why the Plejaran have used the strategy of leaking information over 70 years as opposed to appearing over New York City in 5 minutes.
Sean,
ETs aren’t able to be asked anything by people as they only contact Billy. Therefore they do not deny anything – not their contacts, not their technologies, not what they are here for, not what our true histories are, not what the point of life is, etc.
Billy says the PD theory is false because nothing is denied in the case. At best it would be right to say that some things are not spoken about openly and we are told clearly when this is the case and why, because we do have to do much of the work ourselves as this life is all about learning self-responsibility, which is at the heart of the case.
Deardorff’s PD theory also suggests concealment around the case when in fact things are only concealed to those not willing to look hard enough and when the whole case has actually been about disclosure of the full truth from the outset. If we don’t understand that then that’s our look out – not the Plejaren’s – which is suggested by the PD theory.
Hi Matt,
Thanks for your response. Regarding your first paragraph, you have misunderstood what “plausible deniability” means in the general sense, as well as the way that Deardoff has applied it to the Meier case. The Plejarans are indeed not the ones doing the denying. Yes, as you say, the Plejarans are only speaking to Meier, and clearly they do not deny their own existence. And that is not a part of Deardoff’s explanation.
“Plausible deniability” refers to earth humans who are reviewing the Meier case. For example, if the Plejarans uncloaked themselves in front of New York City tomorrow and said “hello” to everyone, earth humans would have zero deniability regarding their existence. If the Plejarans presented zero evidence whatsoever to earth humans about their existence, there would be 100% deniability. However, if the Plejaran present evidence to earth humans – concrete, circumstantial, and everything in between, there would be some amount of “plausible deniability,” only in the sense that the earth human has to work out for himself whether the case is true or not. That is how Deardoff applies the term to the Meier case. “Can I plausibly deny whether the Meier case is real?” – that is how the term functions, and it is a question everyone must ask himself, regardless of what conclusion he arrives at.
I will concede one thing about Deardorff’s PD theory: He takes it too far when he suggests that the Plejaran may have planted some false evidence (e.g. false photographs) on purpose in order to artificially increase our sense of plausible deniability about the case. I doubt the Plejaran would deliberately mislead earth humans in this manner, even in small ways, because it is not necessary. I think that you may have understood this point – a deliberate misleading by the Plejaran regarding the evidence they provide to earth humans – to be Deardorf’s central claim regarding his PD theory. It is actually not his central point; it is an extension, but I don’t think it’s correct. His main point is merely that the Plejaran have leaked out in the information slowly to allow human beings to arrive at the conclusion (make the discovery) of ETs themselves. (You can re-read my direct quote of Deardoff’s publication in my original statement – I imagine you agree with the quote in and of itself)
Regarding your second and third paragraphs, I largely agree with you. As an aside, if Meier has commented directly on Deardorff’s “plausible deniability” theory, do you happen to know where it is; can you link us to it?
Sean
Sean
Hi Sean,
Actually there are two very similar theories; leaky embargo and plausible deniability (also Semi-Plausible Deniability but that’s too wishy washy to be considered for an overall ;theory’). However, Billy has denied both these theories for the reasons previously stated (see links below). I still think that PD as you defined is misleading and incongruent with what we know and are told by the Plejaren, whereby I think there were many factors not fully known or understood by us that limited their activities that had nothing to do with an overall plan to leave a predetermined & calculated amount of doubt. Something tells me that the work of the Plejaren was very hard with many problems, pitfalls and difficulties we just won’t know about. Also, was it the Plejaren’s intention to not have the original scrolls of the TJ available to us? No. Was it the intention of the Plejaren to not have the thousands of photos and negatives of UFOs available to us? No.
The evidence above and on its own would have made it impossible to deny the case. So it really had nothing to do with the Plejaren but with us & what evidence we made available for ourselves not evidence the Plejaren made available for us. Any available evidence at all gives us at least a glimmer of hope, e.g., what if things had been really bad & no-one had ever heard of Billy?
It’s also interesting to note the road this thinking goes down… http://www.theyfly.com/articles/gaia/tsunami.04.htm
In legalese, “Plausable deniability refers to circumstances where a denial of responsibilty or knowledge of wrongdoing can not be proved as true or untrue due to a lack of evidence proving the allegation. This term is often used in reference to situations where high ranking officials deny responsibilty for or knowledge of wrongdoing by lower ranking officials. In those situations officials can “plausibly deny” an allegation even though it may be true.
Source: http://definitions.uslegal.com/p/plausable-deniability/
The above description has nothing to do with what the Plejaren have been doing, but, I’ll leave the last words about these theories to Billy…
http://forum.figu.org/us/messages/12/10203.html
http://forum.figu.org/us/messages/12/6760.html
http://forum.figu.org/cgi-bin/us/discus.cgi?pg=next&topic=12&page=11487
http://forum.figu.org/us/messages/12/13110.html
Salome
Matt
Hi Matt,
Thanks for supplying the links. The response from Billy in one the links does state clearly that the Plejaran have never purposefully lied to earth humans, and that they are definitely not trying to double-bluff with fake evidence to increase plausible deniability. This is as I had supposed and hoped.
In the links you supplied, I typed in “plausible” and “deniability” and “embargo’ into the find search bar to make sure I wasn’t missing relevant questions or answers. I have not found that Billy Meier has responded generally to Deardorff’s theories, nor has he denied certain specific important points which Deardorff makes:
In order to assist earth humans, the Plejaran are purposefully using a slow-paced leak of evidence rather than mass revelation (appear over New York) so as to allow humans to process the evidence in their own time, because too much information/reality would be painful and potentially dangerous. I’ve never heard/read of Meier saying “no” to this. Since this is in fact what has happened, a slow steady release of information and evidence, whereby only a few people have poured over it, with only a few accepting and more rejecting it, while 9999/10000 earth humans to date have never even heard of the case, one might ask why the Plejaran do not have plans to make their existence clear to more people and faster. What’s your answer to this?
Here is another main point in Deardorff’s case, which I do not believe Billy has ever denied:
In order to assist earth humans, the Plejaran will certainly not contact or put evidence directly into the hands of earth scientists, the military, or news agencies, because irrefutable evidence of ET life that was perceived as genuine by any of these parties might lead to rapid destabilization of socioeconomic structures including and up to full war. (This is similar to the previous point)
But here are some points I am willing to concede to you after reading your thoughts on the matter:
Perhaps the Plejaran did not intend from the beginning to “leave a predetermined & calculated amount of doubt” (your words) for the case. That is to say, they weren’t so much working hard to figure out how they could cause doubt or plausible deniability around the case, they were more focused on getting the information out, while balancing expediency against respecting the autonomy of earth humans, as well as their safety. Is that a statement you would generally agree with?
Sean
Hi Sean,
You missed the last link in my previous post where Billy unequivocally slams Deardorff’s theory as “nonsense” which is why you “…never heard/read of Meier saying “no” to this”. As previously stated, ‘plausible deniability’ does not in any way describe what the Plejaren have been & are still doing in my view.
“In order to assist earth humans, the Plejaran are purposefully using a slow-paced leak of evidence”. As you missed the information in my previous post where Billy says, “The Leaky Embargo Hypothesis is pure nonsense”, this is no “fact” as you assume.
My answer to, “…why the Plejaran do not have plans to make their existence clear to more people and faster” is that the amount of people that are aware of the case today is the very best we could have ever hoped for whilst Billy is alive. In terms of historical documents covering the time of the prophets, the current information available to us is unprecedented & at a speed that is completely up to eachone of us. The plausible deniability theory is wrong so the question is based on an assumption. Suffice it to say that the Meier case is not a Hollywood movie on a budget & only there to blow our minds or bomb. We must be careful not to complain like spoiled brats.
“…the Plejaran will certainly not contact or put evidence directly into the hands of earth scientists”. Tell that to IBM scientist Marcel Vogel & every scientist that has analysed & corroborated the evidence before & since.
“Perhaps the Plejaran… were more focused on getting the information out, while balancing expediency against respecting the autonomy of earth humans, as well as their safety. Is that a statement you would generally agree with?” Not entirely as it was Billy that did the work to get the information out with help of the good people of FIGU & other supporters. It would appear that the Plejaren do respect our autonomy, but, would have demands that our leaders cannot meet in order to fly over Washington DC so this is not ruled out by them. In any case, there is evidence that they do step in when & where their laws allow & despite the veryreal risks to their lives & the resulting accidents which cannot be always predicted, therefore safety is not assured in all endeavour.
Matt
I’ve been deliberating over this topic myself. For example, how does the “Pendulum Film” fit into all of this? I don’t have a quote from Billy or the Plejaren but MH has stated that part of the reason for the pendular movements was to provide an “out” for skeptics. This is clearly not a Plejaren lie. It is not a deception since these are movements physically possible by their ships and does likely demonstrate the normal movements of these ships in a terrestrial environment— Precisely what the demonstration offers. It may have been exaggerated slightly for the benefit of skeptics, or at the very least LIMITED to the very easily mimicked pendular movements. This would appear to supply plausible deniability for those who are unable to accept Meier’s claims but in no way alters the evidence of an irreproducible demonstration.
It’s about OUR perspective & to what extent we take full responsibility for that – even in the Pendulum film. That is the point of the case in my book, i.e., strengthening our thinking & seeing.
For example, one of my claims to (no) fame is to, admittedly, way too prematurely, be the first to recognise that the Pendulum UFO footage is the first time that a time travelling UFO has been captured on film. Rhal Zahi agrees with me that the UFO may actually appear in 3 places in one video frame, not just 2 places, as previously stated. In one video frame (representing about three frames of actual film) the UFO is “jumping” back away from the camera whilst simultaneously appearing for an instant at its closest point to the camera – all at the same time. It’s so quick you can miss it unless you look hard enough but I have presented the evidence for this which Rhal has seen and found interesting. My theory is that IF the 3rd ship is the same ship as the ship placed elsewhere in the same frame (and it looks to have the same dimensions to depth of field), this would be impossible by speed or spatial jumps alone as the event was captured over 3 frames of film. Therefore time travel must have been employed (assuming the above is correct) However, I’m not a Professor so noone is interested in my theories unlike the stupid dead-end Implausible Diarrhoeability theory where everyone is actually – all by themsleves – looking for a clever “Out” as Michael put it.
I’m not seeing it. There is a dark spot that appears just prior to the 1st jump as the UFO is moving away from the camera. However, this dark spot’s location does not correspond to any of the UFOs previous positions leading up to the jump. Also, there are numerous other specks of what are presumably dirt so the most reasonable conclusion is that this dark spot is another speck of dirt. It’s possible that I am not viewing the same frame you are or a different copy of the film.
Taro,
Rhal has given me permission to share his response to my (too long to post here) findings:
“Yes. there is another image of what looks like a beaship partially materialized. It might be another beamship or the same one. It is not likely to be dust in the film, since it happens in three consecutive frames and it has different levels of brigness. Good observation.”
I do need to make a correction to my ealrier post. Regarding the frames I remembered the details incorrectly. Rhal actually sent me the following along with a frame by frame copy,
“This is the detailed sequence of Jump 1. I ignore repeated frames (in a sequence of 5 frames, number 4 and 5 are the same). The other beamship is tiltled a bit to the right. It might be the same or may be another one. The jumps are not exactly at the same time. Each frame is 1/30 of a second.”
I am still a firm believer so to speak on the merit of Dr Deardorff’s semi plausible deniability factor.
Hell the plejaren stated that they wanted to create a controversy and Billy was single handedly the most important person to succeed at creating it with their help.
I mean C’Mon the plejaren jump back and forth into the past and the future to make sure that the mission succeeds remember.
How did they succeed unless all the causal and effective factors were painstakingly put in place at the right time in the right place by the right persons with the right reasons in the right way.
The pendulum UFO is a classic example.
It stirred a lot of people to frenzy.
The psychological effect and perceptual management of us earthworms back then with this PenUFODemo among so many others have done so much to bring this subject and topic of UFO to where it is today.
Billy and the plejaren are masters at it because they are so wise and intelligent.
So here we are still talking about it to this day as if it happened yesterday.
Wow
Isn’t that proof enough!
Hi Matt,
The theory you espouse has nothing to do with plausible deniability for the reasons I have previously stated. Billy has said that Deardorff’s theory is nonsense. So we should continue to strive to fully understand why things happened in the way they did and the basic premise, that they concealed things is not, in my view, the causal factor for these anomolies.
More like it was the only we would take them seriously, giving the case the best possible chance, We don’t need Professors to define the case for us. We are able to think without certificates (for now).
I’m trying to move the concersation on from Deardorff’s point of reference & have been trying to do that for years, but, some people must think that his theories are too precious to be let go of. despite Billy calling them nonsense. Why do you think this is? To paraphrase CF: The truth doesn’t need professors – Professors need the truth.