Pseudo-scientist, Stuart Robbins, proved wrong – yet again – as scientists corroborate more of Billy Meier’s prophetically accurate information
Scientists announced that the speed of light isn’t always constant, confirming once again what UFO contactee Billy Meier said waaaaaay back in 1979:
Quetzal:
27. Now, I am actually interested in your questions and calculations.
28. Present them to us.
Billy:
Happy to do so, my son. Thus, my first question: Is the speed of light constant of presently 299,792.5 kilometers per second, which is calculated by our earthly scientists, correct?
Quetzal:
29. This figure is of correctness.
30. But I notice with your question that you speak of a present constant; what do you want to express with that?
Billy: I have calculated that the light constant steadily decreases within the framework of a certain half-life.
NOTE:
The above information is ironclad, i.e. verifiably published long prior to the “new official discovery”. This prior, copyrighted, online publication alone constitutes a legal standard of proof. Meier’s original publication preempts our scientists by a mere…36 years.
Wendelle Stevens referred to Meier knowing this information even earlier:
“First of all, the ETs do not measure distance in terms of light-years because that is our unique creation. They say the speed of light is neither constant nor does it travel in a straight line (except over very small distances) — being speeded up and slowed down, and bent every which way by magnetic fields of force, which are everywhere.”
About this time, one particular pseudo-scientist might just be feeling kinda pStupid. That’s right, skeptic Stuart Robbins*, the know-it-all and shill for the party line who unambiguously declared Billy Meier to be a hoaxer, fraud, etc., when earlier provided with Meier’s information about the speed of light. He dismissed it as wrong because it hadn’t yet been proved by terrestrial scientists.
Robbins of course will probably now resort to attacking the article itself but I doubt that he’ll attack the Cornell University Library for posting the research report. Then again…maybe he will.
Traitors to the Truth
Now, in light of yet another corroboration of Billy Meier’s specific, voluminous, prophetically accurate scientific information, does my including Robbins on my “traitors to the truth” category really so sound so harsh? Think what’s at stake here as these poseurs and sold out know-it-alls suppress and attack the Meier case. Meier, the same man who has tried for decades** to warn us away from the dead-end path of self-destruction that we, in our moth-to-the-flame, suicidal, religiously deluded, overly entertained, ignorance and arrogance passionately pursue in our own hell-bent, lovable little ways.
Contact 251
According to Mariann Uehlinger, another prediction that has fulfilled as well is sentence 197 of contact 251, from February 3, 1995. The movement of complete Gewaltlosigkeit (non-violence) is http://www.nonviolence.com, the “Gruppierung” (another group) is the EU and the woman who will reach a powerful Weltmachtstellung (world might position) is Angela Merkel from Germany.
(These references are to this information in our unnumbered English version: “Initial efforts are being made by a new movement to promote total non-violence; while a woman gains a high and influential position among world powers through another group’s formation.”)
*For more about Stuart Robbins’ Greatest Hits, er, Misses, start with my unfortunately overly-optimistic, first blog about him:
Then use the TheyFlyBlog Search for about 10 pages of more information about just how wrong Robbins and the rest of the skeptics can be…at humanity’s expense.
**For a reality check, please see:
UPDATE on the New IS Planned Holocaust
URGENT: Another Prophecy Fulfilling
Thanks to Philip Brandel, Bruce Lulla and Mariann Uehlinger for the information.
Marco,
Pi has now been correctly calculated, though confirmation from Billy hasn’t arrived yet. Look at http://www.jainmathmagics.com. The work of this Aussie down under is now attracting some scientific interest, though, of course, it is far from mainstream yet. It’s a fascinating subject. So much so that I remembered the number to 42 decimal places. If I remember correctly, do check it out as I am sending this via smartphone, it is; 3.144605511029693144278234343371835718092488…
Thanks Chris,
your link is missing an “e”: http://www.jainmathemagics.com
The site looks very “new agy” to me and I’m not a big math buff myself. If that is the real deal and Meier confirms it, I’m a happy panda. This will change the attitude of (at least some) scientists and also improve calculations that involve pi, of course. 😉
Very interesting Chris thanks for sharing this.
Jain wrote.
When the True Value of Pi is globally recognized, new advances in Time Travel will be developed as the mathematical harmonic for the Circle-Square relationship will have been rectified correctly to infinite decimal places (fig 4). At this moment, year 2014, traditional pi (aka Legacy Pi or Deficient Pi) is in error in the 3rd decimal place. This prediction has already been made! by Billy Meier (born in 1937) and is the most controversial case in the UFO community.
Billy Meier is a Swiss farmer in contact with Plearjen people (humans like you and me) since the age of 6.
In Contact 251 (http://www.futureofmankind.co.uk/Billy_Meier/Contact_Report_251) it is stated :
“In the process they will discover that the base for pi was miscalculated. By eliminating the error in pi, and correcting future computations based on pi, scientists and their amazing, highly developed technology will have the capability to make unimaginable energies accessible to the people of Earth”.
http://www.jainmathemagics.com/page/10/default.asp
My calculations came to 3.114 for PI.
Thanks Michael again for another good post!
Hey, I have been doing some thinking o_O.. and I found a way for people to come on board so to speak.
Im not sure if you would have the time or not to do it, but If you could attach an actual first published date and nature of the publishing, I feel that would greatly help people to understand the situation better. Because, people often get confused with the contact report dates, then the first published dates (German,English) and then the counter publishing claims by sceptics and critics.
All the best,
Keep up the good work
Paul,
As far as this particular instance goes, I don’t have the original contact report but the online translation predates the new discovery. This is in itself a form of proof of course. But more importantly, what we should consider is that there is sufficient evidence to show that Meier has hundreds of such Contact Reports, dated down to the hour in many cases, often containing information connected to past or future conversations, etc. As I also pointed out, the language isn’t speculative or theoretical but rather definitive and it’s those definitive statements that often get corroborated as “new discoveries”.
Then we absolutely must keep in mind…means, motive and opportunity. If Meier wasn’t “simply’ transcribing actual conversations he’d have to be somewhat of a creative genius (which he may be in some ways) to craft these effectively seamless – as well as accurate – transcripts. He’d also have to have taken a fair amount of time for such an “indulgence” in what has been an extremely demanding, responsibility laden, well documented life and use of his time.
However, there are indeed many examples such as you’ll find here:
http://theyfly.com/A-Sampling-of-Evidence.html
…which are from Wendelle Stevens’ books that he published mainly in the 1980s. At FIGU’s request, we don’t sell any of these anymore because of many translation inaccuracies. But from time to time certain excerpts may be published to show that, of course, Meier published these things, first as documents that he shared with FIGU members and then were disseminated to other people, and then were translated and found there way into Wendelle’s books, etc.
For all the noise certain skeptics recently made about some things, they totally, deliberately, stubbornly neglected to acknowledge, consider and deal with all of this basic evidence of Meier’s accuracy and authenticity. So I’m sure everyone can appreciate just what a miserable, head-banging experience it is to try to deal with all the know-it-all “experts” in the sciences, let alone in so-called UFOlogy.
MH That Erra website I gave you is also from Wendal Stevens too. You might also want to check this out from Wendal`s past websites,books info and so on. I`m not sure I`m stearing you in the right direction though if this makes any sence. Sorry.
Ok, so they don’t sell Wendelle’s books anymore. Can I buy a copy of the original contact notes in German?
I think so, through FIGU.
Thanks.
You betcha. And please feel free to let us know your thoughts on any and all recent developments. Thanks.
Andy does it mean that all this time you fellas haven’t even used the original German contact notes to investigate all these supposed anomalies but instead relied solely on the english translations???????????
They are available at Amazon? Seemed to be able to buy all the volumes as well. And the ‘light speed’ deal is most definitely within one volume, of these books, from the late 80’s to early 90’s.
http://www.amazon.com/Message-Pleiades-Contact-Eduard-Volume/dp/0934269246
Not ‘cheap’ by any means but what is money in a time like this? Interesting that the likes of Mahesh doesn’t seem to have these books in his ‘collection’? Though it does seem his hour of ‘fame’ is up… Will go down with the likes of K.K.K. and Langdon as far as I see it.
These original books aren’t in mine collection either, though I have read many a copy of them. Doesn’t seem to hard to see the correlation of authenticity within our world, non the less.
Matt Lee,
No. First, I haven’t really been doing any investigating, outside following Mahesh and Simon’s work. But, if you’ve read their work, you’d know they have a bunch of original stuff. It was thereby that they were able to discover many of the so-called corroborations were no such thing. I’d like to get my hands on my own copies though, thats all.
Phillip,
I don’t think Mahesh’s ‘fame’ is up. He has done something no one else has done, i.e., managed to fairly comprehensively penetrate the most “impenetrable hoax in all in human history.” And all he had to do was get a hold of some original copies (to discover mounting indications of deception). Imagine that. I’m sure people will benefit from Mahesh’s work for a long time, if they decide to verify MH’s fraudulent claims.
He has also clearly shown of course that Meier was either lying, or Ptaah severely mistaken, concerning the authenticity of the outer space photos.
MH,
Well, since you asked…what recent developments? Like Mahesh’s work on the Horsehead Nebula photo?– a photo which is clearly not authentic, but yet when this was pointed out to Meier, he simply published a whiny, vile, hateful open letter to the person who had pointed out the obvious non-authenticity of the photo (without even ever addressing the man’s legitimate challenge)? I see where you get your style from.
The speed of light thing does not impress me that much. Supposing for the moment that there are no Plejaren, Meier would likely be getting some help from some powerful people to have pulled this thing off. With that in mind, there are many so-called “new discoveries” that are not really new. I happen to know that academic journals will not publish certain things, or even scientists work will be completely shut down if the work touches upon things “they” don’t want made public yet. (Consider that certain terrestrial groups supposedly already have anti-gravity technology at their disposal). That is to say, it is entirely possible a handful of elites were already aware the speed of light is not constant…they coulda told Meier to write it down.
The Ice Man would have been different, would have been a stunning corroboration…had Meier actually published the relevant information at the time when you continue to fraudulently claim he did.
Were you referring to any other recent events?
Coulda, woulda, shoulda and “fraudulent”…all unsubstantiated.
But that’s fine, enjoy yourself.
And what is Meier getting out of this elaborate hoax? What is his motive? Wanting us to live a more peaceful, harmonic life? Wanting us to take care of our planet and each other? Wanting us to take responsibility for our actions in order to learn and evolve into truly peaceful, loving, respectful human beings? Those are not usually the kind of things that people are trying to “get” when they perpetuate a hoax. It would take an enormous amount of time and money for these “elites”, as you say, to orchestrate this ongoing hoax for 70+ years! Why? This theory fails to meet the standard of common sense and logic! Therefore, it stinks!
Melissa,
Yes, it not only fails to meet the standard of common sense but it’s absolutely devoid of real world, thinking, logic…means, motive and opportunity.
But this is the way it will be for a lot of people who, to be blunt about it, have little experience outside of their computers and imaginings. Someone comes along claiming to have “busted a hoax” and just as quickly as they may have embraced the information without thinking it through, even faster do they bail out if they encounter a fancy but baseless debunking.
@Andy,
“First, I haven’t really been doing any investigating, outside following Mahesh and Simon’s work.”
The more diversity in your sources of information the less prone you are to bias, error and omission.
To be blunt about it, you have no idea about my experiences outside the computer. And to be blunt about it, your fraudulent promotion of the Ice Man has been substantiated ad nauseum. 100%. It boggles the mind that you would still say otherwise. But keep saying so, that’ll make it go away I’m sure.
Same for all the indications of back dating. Just ignore those everybody. It’s really for your own good. Better to have a belief that makes you feel better, than know the truth of the matter. I think that’s one of Meier’s teachings.
Melissa, those are good questions. Whatever is behind the Meier case, genuine or otherwise, it sure is an enigma. But what really “fails to meet the standard of common sense and logic” is that this entire blog is not devoted to explaining Mahesh’s extremely damning findings.
Check out Mahesh’s findings on the Ice Man info, the Mufon info, and the ozone layer info for starters — all unfortunately appear to be shining indications of a hoax. Have a look at his work on the the outer space photos for good measure. I keep saying this, but apparently no one reads the stuff, preferring instead to persist in blind belief — otherwise you would be saying the same things I am, e.g., what the hell is going on? and why is MH still lying to us?
It’s funny that over the last couple of weeks, I’ve been continually criticized and NOT ONE comment has spoken towards Mahesh’s findings that I keep bringing up. Instead, always misdirection and non sequiturs. It’s really quite pathetic, juvenile, and frustrating…and I’m supposedly the young immature one. This is getting rather embarrassing.
“Baseless debunking”? Virtually every so called corroboration has been found wanting…NUMEROUS EXAMPLES OF BACK-DATING HAVE BEEN FOUND…the outer space photos,verified by Ptaah to be genuine, have been shown to be laughably fake…this is “baseless”?
Yep, put the covers back over your eyes children, nothing to see here.
For those around here who still have some semblance of critical reasoning ability intact, concerning MH/FIGU/Meier’s refusal to address Mahesh’s findings…the silence is deafening.
The only thing that I guess still needs repeating is that you and the other skeptics absolutely don’t know how to think. There is zero evidence that Meier backdated anything. But you’re too lazy – and willfully incapable – of actually figuring out just WHY that’s true.
So you simply and stupidly sit there and accuse the man of fraud – because YOU can’t think. I’ve spent 35 years, not just sitting at a computer but taking 14 trips to Switzerland, to investigate, interview, question, walk the land where photos were taken, even tried to trick Meier myself, 4 times in three years…and along with knowing how to think deductively, weigh and evaluate evidence, interviewing the original investigators, being one of the more than 100 witnesses myself, receiving accurate information before the fact from the Plejaren…I really am almost in awe of your incompetence, presumptuousness, bull-headed, dull-mindedness…as well as how characterless and shallow you are to attack someone in the manner you do.
Neither you nor Mahesh have a CLUE as to how complex, consistent, truthful, detailed, congruent, absolutely beyond comprehension the case, its evidence and Meier’s literally single-handed presentation of it are. You’re the little armchair experts who want to take down something and someone far greater than yourselves…and go about it in a truly sloppy, inept, UNTHINKING way, which of course remains absolutely unknown to you…despite a number of people hammering away, trying to expand your understanding of how real life works.
You live in a tiny bubble of computer reality, the kind of phantasmagoria that Meier long ago warned about and you’re too foolish to be able to utter the three magic words, “I don’t know.” Anyone with an ounce of scientific, investigative, logical reasoning abilities would laugh at your amateurish bravado, which is completely unsupported by demonstrable accomplishment as a thinker. You possess no deductive reasoning skills and are basically too lazy to learn them. Perhaps one of the reasons that no actually scientifically minded skeptics have rushed to embrace Mahesh’s information is because they KNOW they’d be dead in the water, unable to address things like…means, motive and opportunity, since all the evidence speaks against it.
And yes, you’re still welcome to prattle on here but you won’t get any apologies from me, since I’ve already spent the time to test the case and the information out, again probably longer than you’ve been alive. And here we are without even the benefit of the rest of the information in English; imagine what else is contained in there and just how much more tap dancing you guys would have to go through to try to explain it away.
Oh yeah, your stupid remark about not being impressed with Meier’s information about the speed of light. Please tell us…when YOU first published that information and everything else that Meier has, etc. I know you coulda, you woulda and of course since you’re such a genius, you certainly shoulda. While we’re at it, what other “new discoveries” have you, Mahesh, etc., already published that we’ll be ooohing and aaahing about in the years to come?
Andy,
In my over ten years of -almost- daily study, thought, and ‘online’ interaction on this case, Mahesh is by far not the only one to have tried their hand at breaking what you call a hoax! At least others had the gull to put it all out there. It either is or isn’t in ones thinking mind! We can believe this and that, yet in the end NOTHING is perfect. The truth is but what it is. Real life is more than some fantasy of everything being perfect.
Especially in this mans life!!!
So far, he(Mahesh) has actually been quite amateurish in his approach, in my opinion. There is no shortage of arm chair experts whom think their ‘collection’ of English material means anything…. let alone having never been to Switzerland! Some have actually gone there(in the 70’s and 80’s to present) and done quite a bit more than he, and they most definitely failed miserably. His only leg to stand on is not coming out with it personally, as he must know this will only entail him falling on his head, figuratively speaking. Why has he not rebuttal-ed this latest find?
To me, as someone who does see a lot of truth, in the end all on my lonesome, we are being visited by highly evolved, benevolent, humans from the depths of the cosmos. That are very much connected to our joint distant past. It ain’t going to be all butterfly’s and lollypops. Compared to how bad so called ‘humanity’ jumbles the truth on our world, is there any doubt to it also following along with this very truthful case? And obviously one doesn’t have to go to Switzerland to make a true analyses, one doesn’t need one book or dollar either, in this day and age. So in the end it is a very personal thing to find truth or not. Though when we are going to put it out there for others to see we most definitely should have the courage, logic, and personal wisdom to make our own stance, concrete. That most definitely starts by just being honest, as not being shows how far down the hole one really is…
I may ask this now, what are the ramifications of this case if it is real? If one piece of this case is authentic, just one picture let alone all the rest. What does it truly mean for our world? Is it so simple to question every tiny piece to not at least see the whole. Oh well guess it is authentic but will just shrug my shoulders and move on like nothing has changed, and is in need of it. As in the end, this has very little to do with technology and material understanding. Obviously it has to do with us as individuals, and how we will come back to understanding what true ‘spirituality’ means together…. but hey Billy has waaaaaaay to many books on his wall, right? I am sure K.K.K and many others would also agree.
Wow just read up after posting…. this Andy does truly show how much you think you know. As a fellow English speaking/reading American, that is a lot of jabber with as much as is obviously put in, and given to a man in India. We all seem to think we know everything. Even when we barely scratch the surface. Seems ones again you have jumbled the most basic facts and comprehensions when it comes to what this man in Switzerland is saying.
Personally, I come here for no one but myself! To find a better way to be a true human, in the end that is all any of us want! Including the Plejaren, Billy, and Michael. Though the cold hard truth will not be as slimy, nice, and beautiful as the beliefs that surround us. True words are seldom beautiful, beautiful words are seldom true. Sometimes it seems better to look from the outside, deep within.
Welcome to planet earth.
Andy how indepth have you gone into researching the Meier case?
Have you read the GOT or any of Billy’s books?
Just asking
True to form, you will not discuss the points I bring up, but go off an an irrelevant tirade. So, I’ll lay out the facts here for the reader about how there IS indications of dishonesty and backdating. But first, you write:
“The only thing that I guess still needs repeating is that you and the other skeptics absolutely don’t know how to think…You possess no deductive reasoning skills and are basically too lazy to learn them…You live in a tiny bubble of computer reality, the kind of phantasmagoria that Meier long ago warned about and you’re too foolish to be able to utter the three magic words, “I don’t know.””
Yes, I’m sure it does need to be repeated that I don’t know how to think…better to continue to stress that rather than address, and thus bring further attention to, the weakness of the informational evidence. And I’d rather not play this card and crawl down into the mud with you, but because you continue to want the make the conversation solely about my ability to think instead of the evidence, allow me to share a bit about myself. I’m certainly not a genius, but while you spent your youth doing finger nail art, I took the LSAT a few years ago, an exam that tests almost exclusively…deductive reasoning skills. My 95th percentile score afforded me the opportunity to attend a top 30 law school — virtually, for free. Moving on.
Second, I have no problem saying “I don’t know”. I’ve actually done it here numerous times. We’ve been over this–I haven’t said I know Meier is a hoaxer, because I don’t. The case is too evidence rich to make that call right now. But what I do know is that the ‘ironclad’ informational evidence is riddled with holes. Big, gaping, ones.
You say “Neither you nor Mahesh have a CLUE as to how complex, consistent, truthful, detailed, congruent, absolutely beyond comprehension the case, its evidence and Meier’s literally single-handed presentation of it are.” That is simply not true. I’ve been heavily invested in this case for about 8 years. Exactly because I know how complex this case is, I cannot yet make a definitive conclusion…indeed despite finding a handful of indications of backdating/deception. Including:
1. Ice Man info — blatant example of backdating: http://ufoprophet.blogspot.com/2014/10/should-billy-meier-be-awarded-1000000_30.html#axzz3Pu7qdiET
2. MUFON info — blatant example of backdating: http://www.billymeieruforesearch.com/prophecies-predictions-probability-calculations/analysis-of-contact-reports-1-100/#Arab-Israeli_Conflict_MUFON
3. Ozone hole info — likely a shoddy attempt to cover up backdating (of erroneous information to boot): http://www.billymeieruforesearch.com/prophecies-predictions-probability-calculations/analysis-of-contact-reports-1-100/#Atom_Bomb_CFCs_Bromine_Ozone_Hole
4. Patently fake outer space photos strongly indicative of knowing deception: http://www.billymeieruforesearch.com/photos-and-videos/ and http://ufoprophet.blogspot.com/2015/01/bmufor-billy-meiers-outer-space.html#axzz3Pu7qdiET
It turns out that the truth may actually take prisoners in this instance (don’t worry, only figuratively I’m sure).
As for this “…how characterless and shallow you are to attack someone in the manner you do.” Well… what goes around, comes around, I suppose.
The Ice Man objections by Mahesh are actually a rather convoluted effort in themselves to try to disprove what Meier was told by the Plejaren. Mahesh objects to my own statement that such a head injury was a contributing factor to the Ice Man’s death. FINE. But why doesn’t Mahesh point out that ALL of the information about who and/or EXACTLY how and what killed the Ice Man is…PURE SPECULATION?
In fact, while Mahesh objects to my own statement about the head trauma being a contributing factor to his death, he then closes out his comments on the head injury with this statement:
“But some other scientists seems to maintain that it’s not conclusive whether Ötzi’s brain injury was caused by being bashed over the head or by falling after being struck with the arrow.”
In fact, here’s the linked information itself:
“A few years ago, a CAT scan showed dark spots at the back of the mummy’s cerebrum, indicating Ötzi also suffered a blow to the head that knocked his brain against the back of his skull during the fatal attack. In the new study, scientists who looked at pinhead-sized samples of brain tissue from the corpse found traces of clotted blood cells, suggesting Ötzi indeed suffered bruising in his brain shortly before his death.”
Notice that Mahesh says that it’s “not conclusive” and mentions “brain injury”. Please tell me, Mr. LSAT, is it…reasonable to conclude that a “brain injury” just might contribute to one’s death, however it occurred, from a fall or a blow?
Mahesh appears to be more focused on “deconstructing Michael Horn” than on the essence of the matter.
But let’s come back to two points:
EVERYTHING the scientists state as to the actual circumstances, persons involved, etc., pertaining to the Ice Man’s death is absolutely, positively, without a shadow of a doubt…SPECULATIVE. Can Mahesh or Mr. LSAT prove otherwise? Certainly it’s fair to say that I drew the conclusion that a brain injury “shortly before his death” was a contributing factor in a person’s death.
But since Mahesh is firm in making me wrong about such a large piece of forensic evidence as would, at any time in history, be looked at as a possible, contributing factor…why is is he so certain about all of the speculative consclusions for which there is no such hard evidence? It “could have happened this way” is what they’re saying about the circumstances, if it was an accident or a murder, if there were these many people, etc. But they have NO way of KNOWING.
What IS known is that Meier indeed published the information quoted regarding the Ice Man, his fall and the arrow in CR 238, May 18, 1991. Now, why and how is Billy Meier publishing this information at all? Unless I missed something, and I may have in the circuitous attempt by Mahesh to draw consclusions to try to discredit Meier, the 1991 contact information itself isn’t being claimed to have been backdated. Maybe I missed just where Mahesh claims that it was and that he could prove it.
So, once again, a lot of noise and fury signifying nothing.
Regarding the ozone information, please notice that, among other thing he speculates about, Mahesh refers to:
“However the following quotes from newspapers and a magazine from 1974” without providing as much as a Publisher’s Clearing House, “You’ve just won $1,000,000!” scrap of paper showing that Meier DID have access to ANY of those publications.
And when you look at the language in many of those quotes, you see words like “potential depletion” “perhaps it would” “The Defense Department estimates…” “… two University of California scientists (…) contend”, etc. And while their estimates and contentions, etc., may well have been correct, or close, etc., we notice that Meier’s information is usually very specific, not speculative and, of course, the elephant in the room is the lack of being able to show that Meier ever did have ANY access to other sources of it…in the PRE-DIGITAL, PRE-INTERNET era.
Mahesh: “So certainly the connection between bromine and the decomposition of ozone depletion was known in the scientific community before Feb 25, 1975 (Meier’s contact date). Moreover the only verifiable evidence of the publication of this bromine-ozone relationship (in CR 7) by Meier is in SKB 1 (1st ed.), 1977, 2 years after the above articles were published in New York Times and also in the Geophysical Research Letters science journal, which are just two references out of many…Even if we assume that Meier’s information from CR 236 as true, the relation between CFCs and ozone depletion was already proposed for the first time by the scientists Frank Sherwood Rowland, Chemistry Professor at the University of California at Irvine, and his postdoctoral associate Mario J. Molina in Nature vol. 259, June 28, 1974, nearly 8 months before Meier received the information from Semjase in February 1975. Since then the negative effects of FCKW (Fluorchlorkohlenwasserstoffe) or CFC’s (Chloroflurocarbons) were theorized and proposed in many science papers, though it was not conclusively proven until much later in 1984.”
Mahesh makes another assumption about CR 7 being only first published verifiably in SKB 1. He fails to mention that Meier’s early CRs were shared with group members, eventually disseminated to other parties in Europe and…were handed over to Wendelle Stevens as well. This was also at a time when Meier was just struggling to put out the material – along with every other obligation and circumstance in his life. So, while Mahesh sits in front of his nice little computer and insinuates that Meier must have been in similarly comfortable circumstances…with a similarly DEVIOUS, DISHONEST, CONNIVING mindset as Mahesh has…he fails to support that cynical premise.
Again, in his mad, mad rush to “deconstruct” me – which is only a thinly veiled attempt to call Meier a liar, fraud, etc., Mahesh makes ludicrous assumptions about Meier’s having access, in late 1974, to obviously unobtainable, largely speculative scientific papers, as well as to obscure mentions in American newspapers of what was then also speculative information.
These…”internet babies” know absolutely NOTHING about the real world, as they insist on proving repeatedly by thrusting their illogical, unsubstantiated, suspicious, cynical crap in our faces, over and over again.
The most destructive gases appear to be coming from these inept knuckleheads who attach themselves to unsubstantiated, speculative theories about the exact CIRCUMSTANCES (not causes) of death 5,000+ plus years ago, and then float their even MORE speculative, even LESS substantiated, ridiculous theories about how Billy Meier was supposedly accessing obscure information that THEY didn’t even find until a few months ago.
So, while Mahesh falls on his own arrows here, may I suggest that Mr. LSAT not…BELIEVE everything that such tests claim to indicate. If this is the result of your free education, you may have been overcharged. I do have two questions for Andy though:
How old are you? How well did you do in law school?
And please, since I’m so darn generous with my time, if you would answer the questions without asking me any, such as why I ask, etc., it would be much appreciated.
P.S. At this rate, I’d suggest a career as a manicurist. While I moved on to other things, including learning how to think, such an experience may hold a similar benefit for you. Of course I was the actual creator of the fad and quickly moved on to other things, 48 years later people are still doing it. I somehow doubt that your current level of scholarship will be a similar inspiration for even such a frivolous pastime.
Something on topic, wonderful. Yes, I will grant you the true circumstances of the death of the Ice Man are indeterminate.
I suppose I wasn’t very precise; I’m sorry you spilled so much ink on something I’m not so concerned about. I wanted you to zone in on this one sentence in Mahesh’s work:
“AFTER THE ARROW WAS DISCOVERED in Ötzi’s body in 2001, the Contact Report 238 was edited to include the new discovery.”
Is this true? If this is true, than this is a clear cut example of “back-dating.” The MUFON bit, as I am sure you aware, is another clear cut example of such. I’ll leave the ozone/CFC aside for now, as there is a lot going on there.
You write:
“Again, in his mad, mad rush to “deconstruct” me – which is only a thinly veiled attempt to call Meier a liar, fraud, etc., Mahesh makes ludicrous assumptions about Meier’s having access, in late 1974, to obviously unobtainable, largely speculative scientific papers, as well as to obscure mentions in American newspapers of what was then also speculative information.”
This makes me think you still don’t understand the rules of the game here — the game that you had chose to play with your claims about being able to prove the Meier case beyond a shadow of a doubt.
There are two potential “trials” we could be holding:
1. In the first scenario, you are going to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt (97% certainty) that the Meier case is real. This is tough to accomplish, and it doesn’t take much to defeat you in this game. The other side only has to sow some 4% of doubt, only has to show that there are potentially other ways Meier could produce his evidence, so that we cannot truly be certain that there are ET’s involved. Because the burden of proof is on you, and the standard of proof is so high, MMO is not really that important in this game.
But to be sure, this is the game you set up for yourself with your claims. And because Mahesh has found that in all the “corroborations” he has looked at Meier was not the first publisher, and because there has been found at least two indications of backdating (MUFON, arrow — please do correct me if I am wrong there) and because the “genuine” outer space photos turned out to be obvious fakes, we have more than 4 percent doubt. By my lights, more like 50% doubt. The case still has a lot going for it in terms of evidence, but Mahesh’s findings sheds huge doubt, and thus you lose.
2. The second “trial” we could be holding would be me claiming that I will prove Meier is a hoaxer, as a prosecutor proves a defendant of a crime. In this scenario, I would surely lose. This trial, of course, would require me showing with 97% certainty that Meier is a hoaxer, and indeed, a showing of MMO would be paramount. Which I cannot do. If the case actually is a hoax, it is a heckuva strange story, and I have no idea why or how he pulled it off. Also, the witness testimony, the beamship photos, these would all have to be accounted for too in order to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Meier really is a hoaxer, which I am certainly not prepared to do.
But no one ever signed up for this scenario number 2. If you think me or Mahesh is “deconstructing you” as a person, we are not. He/we simply decided to play ball with according to the rules of scenario number one — the “trial” that you repeatedly claimed you could win.
If you ever even understood what you were talking about with your “legal standards of proof” talk, I think you sensed you had lost trial #1 and instead tried to pretend that we were actually playing game #2 all along, and you win because I can’t prove MMO…but again, no one ever signed up for scenario #2.
If it feels like this is unfairly too focused on you, and only indirectly about Meier, that is true and that is how it should be. Because the whole question was regarding whether YOUR claim was true — whether the Meier case can be “proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.” To be precise, the question was NOT “is Meier a hoaxer.” The answer to the first question is plainly no, the jury is still out on the second and it is extremely difficult to answer.
It was a mistake to bring up LSAT. In any case, I am 27 and I am doing fairly well in law school but not as well as I’d like (too busy studying the Meier material, among other things). I’m about exactly at the top 25% of my class.
I’ll leave you with two questions as well — was the information about the arrow in the Ice Man’s back inserted into the CR only after the arrow was discovered by the scientists who were examining the body? And was the name “MUFON” inserted into later publications of the CR, only after the group was established? That is, are these two genuine examples of back-dating or not?
Your age confirms one thing for me, that you were essentially brought up in the internet age. While this will be, from here on, the norm, it’s quite apparently a huge handicap for many people who are unaware of how life worked before that time…and as it actually does still work, despite people being lost in phantasmagoria.
But I digress. I’m glad that you want to “zone in on this one sentence” but let’s go back just a bit, shall we, to the issue. Are you claiming that Meier backdated CR 238, May 18, 1991?
Andy,
Another quick question. I’m guessing that you’re NOT majoring in criminal justice, etc. Right or wrong?
Matt,
It seems interesting you believe the GOT has anything to do with what Andy is saying.
It’s unfortunate this long-dead horse is still being beaten, albeit with a difference scope. The Meier case was never intended to be proven 100%. This was mentioned more than a handful of times in the CR and elsewhere. On top of it, it seems Meier himself doesn’t care about the opinions of other regarding the modification of source documents.
Should he be or not be? That seems to be the question.
Salome.
Let’s keep in mind that th ePlejaren didn’t just drop in on Meier, encourage him to write the spiritual teaching and…buzz off.
Part of the mission was to create the UFO controversy, the eye candy. Then, let’s note, Meier went to the trouble to not only have all the contacts but to transcribe all of them, including all of this information. So while actually “proving” anything to anyone doesn’t work, discussing the evidence through which one can REASON their way to logical conclusions assists those who simply want something substantial and verifiable in light of such extraordinary claims.
As we can see, there are those who don’t get it, reject it, try to attack and debunk it…and plenty of others who have their “Ah ha!” moments because of the information. They are then also more likely to delve into the spiritual teaching than if they didn’t go through that process. Of course there are some people who can go straight to the teaching too.
“Are you claiming that Meier backdated CR 238, May 18, 1991?”
I’m asking you — if I am reading Mahesh’s website correct, he says the part about the arrow in the mummy’s back was not in the original publication, but only inserted into the later publications after the arrow was found, i.e., that that part of the CR is effectively backdated…is this true?
And I suppose because you continue to ignore it, you concede that the MUFON info was backdated?
Matt Lee, yes I’ve read the GOT, MOT, and The Psyche. Numerous times for the latter two.
Well first I suggest asking the elusive, not quite committal Mr. Mahesh if he’s claiming that Meier backdated that contact. Or the next one. Or both.
BTW, please do tell me if I was correct about the direction of your legal studies. As soon as I have a free moment I will also address the fallacies in your previous email, which are easy to expose. And truly if you can benefit from this encounter in terms of your legal training it would be my pleasure to make that contribution. I’m not a lawyer, etc., but I think that engaging along the lines of “trying” our arguments can serve to sharpen some useful skills, like deductive reasoning, rules of evidence, preponderance of evidence, reasonable doubt, and one of our old favorites…means, motive and opportunity.
Ok. What a mess. In my last message I had kind of excused you for discussing the less compelling stuff in Mahesh’s analysis of the Ice Man, because when I had looked back at his page I didn’t really find what I was looking for, but only that one sentence I asked you to “zone in on,” ahem, hone in on. So, I had thought it was an honest mistake that you went off talking about the other things, because I myself didn’t find the really juicy part featured prominently on Mahesh’s site when I rechecked it, and had just assumed you kind of missed it too.
But then I realized I had been on the wrong page of his four part analysis. There is a whole page — part 1 — dedicated to the backdating issue. So now I wonder if you were fully aware of all this and purposefully didn’t address his part 1 analysis in your comments above, but instead only discussed the other less compelling parts of his analysis so as to not draw attention to Mahesh’s most scandalous finding.
Ok, and now that I have reviewed part one of Mahesh’s analysis — yes, I am claiming backdating occurred. In fact, it is 100% certain that it was backdated–proved with ironclad copy right dates, your favorite kind of proof!
Mahesh says this about his ironclad findings:
“We are not suggesting that Meier or others have intentionally inserted the ARROW part into the text in order to claim and promote it as evidence of Meier’s unusual source, whom we are being told are ET’s. It is irrelevant and at the same time impossible to prove the motivation behind inserting the ARROW part, if it exists at all. We are just reporting that Michael Horn’s following claims on the Ice man-ARROW information are either not true or insufficient to be considered as an example of “Meier’s specific, prophetically accurate information.”
I would go one step further and say that – obviously – the common sense interpretation of these facts would be that “arrow” was inserted after the fact indeed so as to falsely appear as a stunning, but fake, “corroboration.” I won’t go so far as to say I’m for sure this is in fact what took place…perhaps there is some quirkier explanation that fits but which does not involve purposeful deceit. But certainly it sure does seem to quack like a duck…
And the MUFON bit is of exactly the same character. So we have at least two–ironclad–instances of backdating.
The question then becomes WHY WAS THIS INFO BACKDATED? I mentioned the most obvious conclusion above — but in any case, it is certainly fair that we should get an answer from Meier/FIGU to this question, which is thus far conspicuously lacking. Remember, “no answer is an answer.”
In the meantime, what is perfectly clear is that it surely is fraudulent that you continue to leave your Ice Man webpage up, knowing now as you do that the all the relevant information was only published after the facts were publicly known. There ain’t no two bones about it.
Per your question, actually there is good chance I will end up practicing criminal defense. But I am curious to hear where I erred above. But before you go on another diatribe concerning MMO, I really hope you do understand my recent comments above –YOU carry the burden of proof. Per your repeated grandiose claims, we are dealing with scenario #1 outlined above, not #2.
It’s a weird thing this Meier case. To extend an olive branch of sorts — I actually do believe you in your story about your sighting in Brazil. Or you’re a very good actor. But I think its the former. Crazy. But there are these damn examples of backdating — like the arrow in the mummy. As such, clearly you should take down your webpage about the Ice Man — why persist in knowingly spreading misinformation?
No one is going to give you flack if the evidence is not quite so strong as you once had supposed. But when you make claims that are obviously, demonstrably false, it only makes you look silly and does a disservice to your cause.
Here is the problem that I see. We have all of this stuff by Mahesh on Ice Man, the first page of which alone – that he has embraced and proclaimed as conclusive – is full of speculation, even though the scientists disagree. And so you want to spend more time going over all of the rest of his presentation despite the foundation already being weak.
I will eventually do it though I think any reasonable person would agree that having made all this fuss about it, the first person to take anything down obviously should be Mahesh, now that his grand proclamation has been shown to be already feeble from the start.
I think you should get about addressing Philip’s post, since it very nicely sets the context that all of you really, suspiciously REF– — — USE to address. Yes, MMO is absolutely and obviously foundational to any claims against the case. It really should be clear to anyone studying/practicing law. We have someone whose life is probably the most well documented of any living person, lived under a world microscope, as well as that of the on-site, professional investigators. This is rare in the extreme and few “cases” afford after the fact investigation with such a compendium of verified, factual knowledge.
In comparison we have the hot-shot version of “investigation” by online armchair experts who’ve never taken the readily available opportunity to actually…go and investigate first hand, since the principle and numerous witnesses, etc., are all still alive. Because you’ve been raised in the digital age, you somehow think this is a ludicrous suggestion. But it also should be glaringly obvious that in ANY AND ALL other incidents in which the persons, etc., associated with a “crime” (you ARE accusing Meier of fraud, plain and simple) are still alive and available for interview, etc. – the investigators/detectives/police DON’T try to conduct that investigation solely ONLINE! Why haven’t any of you who are the accusers – and maybe also the slanders – respected Meier and the process enough to go and do this? I’ve been there 14 times; all of you should scrape up some change to send at least one of you there. ASK THE MAN TO HIS FACE.
It appears that all of the other professional skeptics haven’t either taken your bait or continued to try to attack the Meier case – in fact, as in the cases of Stuart Robbins and John Greenewald, they effectively suppress, censor and/or ignore it.
So, when someone says “obviously false”, it’s up to them to actually prove it. At the very least you owe the target of your accusations the courtesy of ASKING them for an answer.
P.S. As I recall, Mahesh said that scientists said no blood from others was found on the Ice Man. So perhaps this has been overlooked as a possible explanation:
“And since Urk’s weapons were quite battered from the many years of use, he took parts of the weapons and also of the garment of those, who had already died, and of those, who were dying under his and his companions’ hands.” (http://www.theyfly.com/newsflash91/5100_year_old_man.htm)
P.P.S. Ya know, jumping to hasty conclusions, based on the hasty conclusions of someone masquerading as a “researcher”, isn’t the best way to gain credibility yourself. Here is what amounts to a remarkably explanatory element for a minute but now perhaps enormously significant detail. Did Meier go and…backdate that too? Ha.
I thought I read or heard somewhere, correct me if I’m wrong, that there were some parts of the case left open for speculation. Reason being, some people are so religiously ingrained that their belief systems would be decimated to the point it could literally thrust them into insanity. It makes sense to have a way “out” in order to protect the consciousness of those who are not ready and haven’t reached that step in their evolution. There’s plenty of ironclad evidence that the thinking person or the “evolved” person can, without a doubt, know that the case is authentic. It just depends on where you are at in your evolution and learning.
Yup.
Some are also attacking Wendelle’s character to get around that with no shame about it.
They’ll do what ever is needed to deny the truth….
Ok ok, your irresistible charm lured me back. It’s funny you make this about character. What can I say, I learn from the best… you know, just trying to take a page out of your playbook, as you personally insult every skeptic and challenger, or the way Meier did the same to the astronomer who rightly pointed out that the outer space photos were not genuine. We’ve both used strong language, but I really don’t think you want to go down the path of who’s been naughtier than who. I may have issued a couple personal insults; you’ve issued dozens. And here’s the thing, there is a difference between insulting someones intelligence, which you have done ad nausem, and calling someone a fraud for committing a fraud.
It’s curious that you call my statements, or rather Mahesh’s findings, “flawed speculation.” Mahesh has an original copy — and the part about the arrow is missing. It is in the new copy…but without any mention of the fact that it was later added, i.e., that part was backdated. I don’t know what more you could possibly want or how any more un-speculative it could be. Oh, you would take an answer from FIGU you say?– you actually have already been given that too, as core group member Elisabeth Moosbrugger acknowledges that the Ice Man info was not disseminated before the discovery of the mummy.
So what exactly is Meier’s Ice Man info a corroboration of?
Now I’m starting to wonder if you actually aren’t trying to purposefully deceive, or if you really still are completely ignorant to the facts and haven’t really read a word I’ve written or read Mahesh’s page. I don’t know which option is more troubling at this point.
You ask, “I’ll have only one other question for you, what will you say when the Meier case is known to be true and when skepticism about the case and Meier’s truthfulness and authenticity is held by very few, mainly the religious, ignorant, etc.?”
As you may know from your crime dramas, that’s called a leading question (not allowed in the courtroom), or in logic and philosophy “begging the question.” Regardless, I would play along but I honestly have no idea how to answer such a ridiculous question.
I did notice something interesting in your comments. It’s nice to see you have have backed down from the “beyond a shadow of a doubt” language and now are making the much softer claim “preponderance of the evidence.” Perhaps some of my comments after all. And really — along with pointing out the falsehood of your Ice Man page — that’s all I ever wanted you to acknowledge: that although Meier may perhaps win on a preponderance of evidence standard, everyone who is not immediately swayed by the evidence should not be deemed an idiot/moron/incapable of thinking/etc., particularly now in light of Mahesh’s work, who has found that in every so-called “corroboration” analyzed (the so-called “higher standard of proof”), Meier was not truly the first publisher.
I suppose this conversation has run its course. If there is anymore questions though I’ll be happy to respond; perhaps the readers are enjoying the slug-fest.
I would try to speak about MMO, but that really would be speculative. I don’t know about MMO, but I could imagine some alternative scenarios that could account for the Meier evidence that do not involve ET’s — but previously you had mentioned any “he could have” as something you didnt want to entertain. So I didn’t really go there, and indeed the conversation was never really about that, but simply about your claims regarding the Ice Man in particular, and the strength of the informational evidence in general.
And I can’t really make an argument based on Meier’s character, as I don’t know the man. But the only thing I have heard about his character is extremely negative, and this came from someone who knows him very very well. I’m sure you know what I am referring too. Now I don’t necessarily believe those claims about Meier, as I make a conscious attempt not to accept things which are not verified.
But something that is verified: Meier did not publish anything about the Ice Man before it was publicly known.
Life is funny. Here we have Andy, who’s still essentially an anonymous person, pontificating on, and basically indicting the character of, a man whose life has literally been an open book for over 70 years. Not only an open book but an enormously, uniquely well documented one that speaks loudly and clearly to his honesty, authenticity and…good character.
As far as not knowing how to answer “such a ridiculous question”, maybe it seems ridiculous because of all the assumptions you’ve made and conclusions you’ve jumped to. You say you can’t make an argument based on Meier’s character because you, in your own words, “don’t know the man” and that “the only thing I have heard about his character is extremely negative”. REALLY?
So you have perceived my support for his character? You haven’t watched him in any films, interviews, videos, etc.,and gotten a sense of his character? You haven’t read any of the comments of people who – unlike you – have known him for decades and written forwards and comments to his books, the spiritual teaching, etc.? Yet he’s a fraud, that much you’ve been able to quickly ascertain.
And only out of some sense of adhering to my preference to not entertain speculation do you hold back from telling us how you “could imagine some alternative scenarios that could account for the Meier evidence that do not involve ET’s”. So you’re not big on MMO or character, Mr. Attorney, but you do have a good imagination.
As part of the documentation about your own life and character that YOU’RE creating, certainly for the benefit of potential future clients, you’re revealing traits and characteristics, as well as character values, that aren’t exactly representative of professionalism, competence, objectivity, etc.
Let’s refresh and restate some things that have long been part of the context of the case. Meier, whose physical UFO evidence has been thoroughly expertly analyzed and found to be authentic, devoid of models, special effects, hoaxing, etc., has documented his conversations with the Plejaren down to the day and usually the hour. So we have someone who already has literally out-of-this-world, authenticated evidence for his otherworldly contacts. As far as the contact conversations, it’s long been said in the material that certain things were left out of contacts until after a specific event occurred.
Because of all things that support Meier’s credibility – and his character – I accept as factual the date of the Ice Man contact. I don’t soften or back down at all about it. Since this is one of literally hundreds and hundreds of contacts that have been documented, and since Meier of course never drew attention to it or any other specific information as he published these, I see no motive, as in MMO, for him to have created a lie about when the this particular contact occurred. And the main thing is that he indeed foretold the discovery of the Ice Man…as well as specific, pertinent information about it.
However, Mahesh, Simon and you have made quite a big deal about how all the scientific documentation shows that Meier’s information is fraudulent along with my unambiguous support for it. Now it’s possible that I missed something but it looks like the page that contained all of the SPECULATIVE scientific information that you all were trying to use to bludgeon everyone with is not online. Talk about backdating. Talk about no apologies.
So while I’ve asked a “ridiculous question” that you “honestly have no idea how to answer” you sure haven’t been at a loss for jumping to conclusions wrapped in character assassination about a man whose character and life you tell us that you don’t know anything about.
And to jump for a moment to all that unsubstantiated, imaginative certainty about Meier plagiarizing information about the ozone damage, gases, a-bombs, etc., why didn’t all of you seem to notice that Meier already had mentioned and foretold those things…long before the 1970s?
Of course this is going to set off a new round of attacks as Mahesh and company will be now suddenly demanding proof that Meier published the source documents in the 1950s:
1951 (Meier was…14 at the time):
21. Through the guilt of the people, all storms will assume increasing and more violent forms, such as hail storms, blizzards and flooding rains, as however also the ozone-layer will become very dangerously damaged.
1958 (Meier was 21):
56.) Through atomic contamination of the environment – through atomic explosions, atomic power plants and radioactive waste from industry and hospitals, and so on – the entire life of fauna and flora as well as of humans will be ever more injured and disturbed in health, while also mutations of fauna and flora as well as of humans will appear in terrible ways.
124.) And through the fault of humans, chlorofluorocarbons sluice through the atmosphere, the Earth will burn, and melanoma and non-melanoma skin cancer will take hold and demand many deaths, and all that because, through human irrationality, the majority of the ozone shield, which protects against the rays of the sun, will be destroyed, whereby the atmosphere will be like a curtain full of holes and the strong and burning light of the sun will burn the skin, and the eyes of many people will be permanently blinded.
100.) Also, when nature defends itself against the human madness of planetary destruction, the Earth becomes ever more naked and less fruitful, and through the fault of humans the air will burn, because the ozone shield will slowly be destroyed.
So in light of all of this, we appreciate your going on record with:
“But something that is verified: Meier did not publish anything about the Ice Man before it was publicly known.”
Allow me to predict that this conclusion of yours, and your answer to my “ridiculous question”, is going to speak quite loudly in the not so distant future as to your incompetence, lack of personal character and lack of real research skills, and as evidence also that you also embraced an equally incompetent, highly ambitious and self-seeking attack on Meier’s character.
Amd isn’t it great that you, just like Meier, now have this documented record of what, when and where you made all of your statements, etc.? I wonder if we’ll see attempts on your part to up the quality of your work and character over time, or if this will be the legacy of how YOU were thinkng and acting at 27 years old that people will judge you by in the future.
Fortunately, Meier’s record of his own work and character, going back to his very early years, is consistent, truthful and withstands attacks by those who, because they “don’t know” have to substitute their imaginative “alternative scenarios” for logical deductions that anyone can make by taking all of the known information and processing it with MMO and, of course, the record of the man’s…character.
Just two things I want to clarify for the reader so it doesn’t get lost, and then I think I really will exit the conversation. First, you say, “Yet he’s a fraud, that much you’ve been able to quickly ascertain.”
For the fourth time, please do not put these words in my mouth. I have repeatedly stressed that despite the Mahesh’s fairly damning findings, I NEVER CALLED MEIER A FRAUD. I don’t know if he hoaxed.
Second, stand by it all you want, but all I’m saying is that this claim is laughable in light of Mahesh’s findings: “5,100 Year-Old Iceman Proves Meier UFO Contact Case True!” (the title of one of your articles).
You say, “…Now it’s possible that I missed something but it looks like the page that contained all of the SPECULATIVE scientific information that you all were trying to use to bludgeon everyone with is not online. Talk about backdating. Talk about no apologies.”
I never appealed to anything speculative or even scientific. But it appears you did miss something. It’s a little confusing I suppose but there are four parts to Mahesh’s Ice Man analysis. For your convenience:
Part 2 discusses the non-speculative, non-scientific fact that core group member Elisabeth acknowledges Billy’s Ice Man info was not disseminated before discovery of the mummy. It can be found here:
http://ufoprophet.blogspot.in/2014/09/should-billy-meier-be-awarded-1000000_27.html#axzz3HExfanFB
Part 1 discusses the non-speculative, non-scientific fact that Billy’s information about the arrow in the back was not disseminated before the discovery of the arrow in the mummys back. It can be found here:
http://ufoprophet.blogspot.in/2014/09/should-billy-meier-be-awarded-1000000.html#axzz3Q3jfbwrT
Talk about backdating and no apologies, indeed. Take care.
At least you are consistent in your lack of logical and ciritcal thinking.
Now it appears that suddenly the hammer that you and Mahesh were hitting us over the head with in terms of the all of the scientifici SPECULATION has been taken offline for now at least.
And you say that Elizabeth is unaware that the document was shared with the group. But that isn’t the key question. The key question, the core issue is that Meier had the contact when he stated and transcribed at least the critical content about the coming discovery of the Ice Man.
Since Meier’s CRs constitute a kind of diary or journal, what you’d like us to believe, in fact what you’d like us to overlook, is your implied premise that in this case Meier didn’t have that contact with that content and specific foreknowledge and didn’t write it down as noted. That would of course mean that he indeed has commited some kind of fraud here.
But, as previously pointed out time and again, there’s no evidence he did that. In fact, the evidence based on consistency for decades – as well of course on character and MMO – speaks againt that, plain and simple. So where is your actual evidence that he falsified, as you are indeed claiming? Certainly Mahesh’s contribution is now shrinking faster than an iceberg.
Hurling accusations that I’ve lied, conducted fraud, etc., is predicated upon Meier’s providing fraudulent information. So while it would be nice if Elizabeth, or perhaps other CG members actually saw that document, the fact is that you’re disputing Meier’s honesty and, as you made clear, you effectively know nothing about his character…amazing as that is for someone who’s defaming a man.
So whether the information was disseminated publicly, the core issue will be whether he transcribed it when it’s so stated. You haven’t yet shown any evidence that he didn’t. So much for your two “points”.
Not only are “Mahesh’s fairly damning findings” no such thing at all, especially since at least 1/4 of his pages contained the specualtive scientific information that he was trying to slip by as conclusive of contradictory and fraudulent information from Meier (and to attack me as a liar, etc.), but the points about dissemination – which I am always of course glad when it can be additionally substantiated – are in no way conclusive against his documentation. If Elizabeth had said she saw the info before, then you and Mahesh could’ve said that was anecdotal, unreliable, etc. – which is also why Meier’s consistent, careful documentation of the contacts and their content are so important and which establish his credibility, authenticity and honesty.
Suddenly (or should I say predictably again) all of this posturing form Mahesh, Simon and you is shown to be a lot of smoke and mirrors.
Of course you didn’t comment on the information that Meier published in the 1950s about the ozone layer damage, chemicals, atomic factors, etc., which puts an end to Mahesh’s accusations of falsifications about that issue.
And here you three geniuses are, decades after the facts, trying your best to punch holes in that which is simply the real truth, inconsistencies and all. May we all be protected from any “legal system” and its practitioners who are so devoid of logic, common sense, deductive thinking based on actual evidence, MMO and character.
So it looks to me like if anyone is lying here, it’s the person who posts a so-called investigation with false conclusions…and then hurriedly takes it down when exposed. And what does that make those who tried to use that information to defame, condemn and falsely accuse the other parties?
Fools at best.
I reenter the conversation so as not to let you get away with stating a falsehood. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you just weren’t able to re-find it again, as there is a lot going on Mahesh’s page — but nothing has been taken down on Mahesh’s site about the Ice Man. Here is part 3 and 4:
http://ufoprophet.blogspot.in/2014/10/should-billy-meier-be-awarded-1000000.html#axzz3HExfanFB
http://ufoprophet.blogspot.in/2014/10/should-billy-meier-be-awarded-1000000_30.html#axzz3Q3jfbwrT
I don’t know how “false” his conclusions are in those sections; I didn’t really read it, as I was solely concerned with, and solely trying to bring your attention to the fact that Meier never disseminated any info on the Ice Man before it was publicly known — and there is nothing false about that conclusion found in Mahesh’s part 1 and 2 analysis.
Ok, you take his word that the CR’s, Meier’s effective diary, was actually penned on the dates given. That’s fine. But if you were to take this claim — “5,100 Year-Old Iceman Proves Meier UFO Contact Case True!” — into any court of law anywhere in the world based solely on your belief in Meier’s truthfulness as to the date at the top of the diary entry (despite the fact that within this very “corroboration” there is indication of untruthfulness, i.e., the arrow part was verifiably backdated) than you would literally be laughed out of the court room.
I hope we are all protected from a legal system that would accept such “evidence” as proof of ET contact.
But I think I will back down from my claim that your continuing promotion of the Ice Man as proof of Meier’s contact is purposefully fraudulent — it is clear now that you simply have an extremely strange idea of what constitutes proof.
Ok the 1951 and ’58 stuff… I suppose it is time to move the goal posts, as the Ice Man missed the mark. So, do we have any proof these were published on these respective dates, or are we again asked to simply take his word? I am not saying he is a liar… but to accept he is in contact with ET’s, we obviously need more than his word and his supposed good character to back it up.
Your idea of what gets “laughed out of a courtroom” needs an upgrade. Reread the info on character…and MMO. You’re at a distinct disadvantage in terms of real world thinking, that’s an inescapable fact.
Just consider how many people DON’T have ANY kind of corroboration for their claims, etc., but who do have the character and MMO and, derived therefrom, a preponderance of evidence that leads one to deductively, rationally conclude the validity of their claims, their being in some other place than where a crime was committed, etc.
And there’s also no escaping that you’ve been casting nasty accusations and aspersions based in part on the material you referred to which, as you now admit…you “didn’t really read”. Nice demonstration of competence, credibility and professional ethics there.
P.S. — A hypothetical question to counter your previous one: What would you say if it turns out Meier did hoax…and you therefore not only found out you were wrong, but also that you were actually much worse a person than all those skeptics, challengers, charlatans and others that you hound, because of your extremely aggressive and vile tirades about those people’s character?
I answered the first parts of your question at the end of The Silent Revolution of Truth: I’d simply like to know…HOW he did it. Being a big fan of MMO even back then, my reasoning mind – coupled with my ACTUAL research, not this bogus online armchair expert crap – long ago revealed the impossibility of a hoax.
As to the second part, I think that you’ll find that I lit into skeptics who: categorically called the case a hoax, couldn’t substantiate it (like Mahesh, you. etc.), censored posts containing evidence, falsified my own statements, etc., etc. In other words, you’ll find that I usually played defense with a very strong offense in response to attacks. And of course because I had/have first hand knowledge in terms of lots of research and later my own experiences, listening to stupid, unreasoned arguments amounts to trying to tell someone that they’re not really breathing, or any number of other probably better analogies. It’s just that dealing with the stupidity inherent in attacks such as these is an exercise in extreme patience.
I’ve offered a number of skeptics the proverbial olive branch, offers to cooperate with them (Derek Bartholomaus, IIG, Stuart Robbins, Phil Plait, Michael Shermer, etc.) So at least – unlike you, Simon and Mahesh – I don’t call people liars and promoters of frauds when they are simply stating their point of view and respond to challenges, etc.
P.S.S. — It is fair as you say, that we cannot view each piece of evidence in a vacuum. (And that’s why no conclusions can yet be drawn simply from Mahesh having proved the Ice Man wasn’t prior published, or that the outer space photos are not genuine). But on the other hand, I think it is right that we do evaluate each piece independently first, and then only when we have really gotten to the bottom of each peice, only then we will be able to view the entire thing in the true and proper full context and then draw conclusions.
Mahesh hasn’t proved that it wasn’t published, let alone that Meier didn’t author it when it’s so stated and dated. He’s only pointed out that there are perceived inconsistencies. Life can be like that and, as already stated, it’s already been long established that certain information is withheld until a later time.
For instance, the Henoch Prophecies mention the attack on the WTC. Well, that just must be a hoax, claim certain skeptics, since it wasn’t published until after the event. But as I’ve already stated there are things in there like the Russian troop movements – also mention of a specific city that they HADN’T yet moved their troops to when the HP went online – let alone when it was first available in German.
Then there’s the Ebola epidemic and info about radical Islam…and a number of other things that are already underway. Since this too isn’t in a vacuum but exists along with the 1950s predictions, as well as the predictions of Jeremiah and Elia, and others that were presented in conversational contexts (Meier must really be only a great novelist) – including the recently corroborated dinosaur and speed of light ones (whether you were “impressed” or not) – a REASONABLE person would consider the preponderance of virtually error free, prophetically accurate information, coupled with Meier’s amazing, authenticated, still irreproducible physical UFO evidence, eyewitnesses, character references, etc., etc., and conclude that he’s not only supremely honest but equally accurate.
Because people have trouble with the nature of the information and evidence in the case they can’t handle it. But if he was simply displaying the same level and amount of accuracy in predicting the weather, sports results, financial trends, etc., people would be praising the hell out of him – and seeking to profit from his advice, information, etc.
Unfortunately the masses are to bleeding stupid to do so, for the most part. So they engage in the terrestrial specialty: attack, maim and kill the messenger. And while people like Mahesh demonstrate a certain frivolous, profit-seeking, cynical lack of being able to comprehend what he’s cajoled people into helping him COLLECT and OWN, he too will have to reckon with the effects. So, if his motivations are other than I say they appear to me to be, then he has no problems awaiting him.
On the other hand…
Something else that must be clarified: I obviously did call it fraudulent that you continue to promote the Ice Man as a corroboration, as it is now clear that Meier did not disseminate anything about him before it was publicly known — but I haven’t seen anywhere where Mahesh or Simon have called anyone a liar or a fraud. Just want to make that clear, don’t want you to put my words in their mouth.
Now, in my own defense, you said “And there’s also no escaping that you’ve been casting nasty accusations and aspersions based in part on the material you referred to which, as you now admit…you “didn’t really read”. Nice demonstration of competence, credibility and professional ethics there.”
I never referred to Mahesh’s cause of death analysis. You tried to make it about that. Admittedly, that stuff may be speculative. I don’t know, like I said, I have only skimmed that part. Again, I solely was focused on his part one and two analysis concerning the true time when Meier disseminated the Ice Man info (which I certainly have read and digested thoroughly).
As for the laughing out of the courtroom thing. First, courts would never field this kind of question; in order for a court to take a case, it has to be a proper “case or controversy,” which the question “is Meier in contact with ET’s?” would not fit the bill. But, if they or some neutral third party did hear arguments along those lines, given the singular uniqueness of such a claim/event, for you to prevail it really would take something either 1) truly “IRONCLAD” for a “beyond the shadow of a doubt” standard of proof, or 2) something EXTREMELY compelling on a “preponderance of evidence” standard…and certainly the Ice Man does not add anything to your case now that we know Meier did not disseminate anything before it was known.
I’m open to the possibility that you could win on the preponderance of evidence standard. With the witness testimony, and IF Zahi’s reports withstand expert scrutiny, and IF a couple of the SPECIFIC informational corroborations withstand Mahesh-style scrutiny… then you maybe/probably have enough there. But like I said, as far as I am concerned, the jury is still out because everything has not been fully vetted, and I simply think it is a much closer call than you are letting on.
Andy,
First, I thought I made clear my argument that Meier’s “diary” here has the date of the information well prior to the discovery of body. Also, in terms of consistency, Meier’s history of keeping such specific records of his contacts is well known and further documented. And many good points can easily be raised that leads a fair-minded person to give him the benefit of the doubt as to the accuracy of the date.
Certainly there have been instances when far less controversial or important people’s documentation was presented and judged on this basis…not on whether ANY of it had been publicly disseminated on the date of entry. And also again, this goes to…character; do we have any legitimate reason to assume that in this particular instance Meier falsified this particular information which, please remember, exists in a rather voluminous body much of which has unquestionably been publicly disseminated on or about the noted dates, etc. Is he the kind of person who is known, or actually can be shown to indulge in fraudulent behavior.
I’m sure that you can see that not only were you claiming that Mahesh’s info effectively showed that Meier backdated, etc., but in all of your assertions and utilization of, references to Mahesh’s info…you didn’t state that you hadn’t actually read it, that you were only endorsing certain parts, etc.
It’s not out of the question that if I find more time to comb through every word of it, there’d be more “inconsistencies”, inaccuracies, etc. This does go to competence and character on your part. And I’m simply stating that as neutrally as I can. I think that you’ll find it’s not an unfair critique…especially in light of all the damning comments you’ve made, your base of reference and accuracy being Mashesh’s now already revealed flawed document.
In any sense, how can you try to make an argument with information that you haven’t read in its entirety, haven’t determined the accuracy of yourself and which gets shown to be hugely flawed? This is why I’ve said that there are inconsistencies, not only here or there in the Meier material but in all aspects of human life.
For instance, in 1986 I first saw elements of what we call the Henoch Prophecies in a document from 1981. It has a number of things that are in the 1987 version but there are also differences between the two in terms of what’s in them. Some details are greater or lesser in them and, as I recall, it’s still about events that haven’t occurred yet. So there is indeed a record of withholding of information at certain times, etc. If you were more familiar with the case and its information you’d also know that…and you may not have been so quick to proceed based on Mahesh’s so-called arguments. And perhaps…NEITHER WOULD HE>
The courtroom scenario isn’t that important to theorize about but it could occur in the event that someone was sued for slander/libel, copyright violation, etc. In any of these possible scenarios, it certainly wouldn’t be wise to have as your base of evidence, etc., documentation that you haven’t throughly familiarized yourself with and that some…manicurist couldn’t easily punch holes in.
Regarding questioning “IF Zahi’s reports withstand expert scrutiny”, so far as I know no OTHER experts – or even skeptics – have presented ANY rebuttals and – even more importantly – since now just about anyone can test the nighttime WCUFO photo themselves, isn’t it time for people to TAKE PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY for their own thinking?
Oh yeah, since you also defended Mahesh’s attack on Meier’s ozone information, etc., what say about the additional evidence that he indeed knew about and published related info in the 1950s?
These straw men are getting tiresome. Have YOU read ALL of Meier’s information… including the 95% that isn’t yet in English? Well then how can you vouch for the material??? Obviously it doesn’t work like that.
Again, I made it perfectly clear numerous times which specific findings originating from Mahesh I was referring too — I do not need to have read every single word he has written to fairly appeal to those specific findings. And there is nothing flawed in his part 1 and 2 conclusion — Meier did not disseminate info about the Ice Man before it was known.
(And for that matter, I have no idea what you are referring to when you say you have shown his analysis, on any part, is flawed. But don’t bother if its not in part 1 or 2, because again it is completely irrelevant).
Since you continually attack my ability to think, my self-responsibility, professional ethics, etc… what of your professional ethics that you did not even bother to verify that Meier disseminated info before discovery on the Ice Man (which, as it turns out, he didn’t)?
For that matter, it is still unclear where you disagree with this ironclad deductive reasoning:
Syllogism A:
P1 – A Meier informational evidence “corroboration” occurs solely when Meier disseminates info on something specific before it is otherwise terrestrially known.
P2 – Meier did not disseminate info about the Ice Man before it was terrestrially known.
C1- The Ice Man does not represent a Meier corroboration.
Which then sets up Syllogism B:
P1.b – A lie occurs when someone knowingly tells an untruth.
P2.b – MH is knowingly promoting the Ice Man as a Meier corroboration.
And the inescapable second conclusion – MH is lying about the Ice Man.
You discuss Mahesh’s “devious, dishonest, conniving mindset” with ZERO proof of such (meanwhile preaching about good character), and yet here you are presented with ironclad proof of the same concerning you and you repeatedly misdirect, insult, and talk about irrelevancies beyond the matter at hand.
“Is he the kind of person who is known, or actually can be shown to indulge in fraudulent behavior…I’m sure that you can see that not only were you claiming that Mahesh’s info effectively showed that Meier backdated, etc…”
Yes, I am claiming backdating occurred in regard to the Ice Man info. Have you still not read Mahesh’s part 1???? I don’t know how many times it can be spelled out. There is no “arrow” in the original, yet there is in the later publications but without any mention that this was later added, i.e., it was backdated. Same thing with the name MUFON. So yes, I am claiming backdating has occurred — because it demonstrably has occurred.
As for “Is he the kind of person who is known, or actually can be shown to indulge in fraudulent behavior…”. Well, we do have some indications of backdating. His promotion of the outer space photos as genuine turned out to be bunk. Like I’ve said, there could be some quirky, but honest and legitimate explanation for these things. But, to any rational person, these raise enough read flags that purposefully fraudulent behaviour is afoot.
Finally, even if his character is relatively impeccable — which it may well be– per the scietific method that you love, the so-called “Sagan Standard”:
“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.”
We cannot simply take someones word that they are in contact with ET’s based on their good character. And as far as I can tell thus far, the informational evidence hasn’t seemed to cut it by any measure.
I’m not aware of anyone debunking Zahi yet either — but has anyone tried? It’s pretty recent stuff. Like I said — the jury is out on the Meier case.
Honestly Andy,
It’s pointless to keep going over this. Decide for yourself if:
Meier’s authentic and truthful
If your decision is based on whether you do or don’t agree with my position
As far as I can tell, the jury’s only “out” for those who really – here it comes – don’t know how to think, comprehensively, logically, deductively, etc. Perhaps if you can muster the courage to get out of your comfy little online, virtual, two-dimensional bubble and take your butt to the center, the flimsy unreality of your thinking will become apparent to you…even before you ask anyone there your first question.
Rob in the context of the still ongoing discussion it does matter whether someone has read the GOT and Billy’s other books for surely there are spiritual principles or whatever you wish to call it applicable yet some have failed to apply it in their quest to understand the supposed suspect elements of Billy’s all too often misunderstood information and so my conclusion being that even if they’ve read it, it appears that they haven’t understood it.
Yes these conversations had to take place and yes there is a reason for everything including this latest episode I would imagine Billy had already foreseen to happen.
Yes I also understand that Mehesh and others are making their unique contribution which on the outset may appear to be hostile or even ill intentioned towards MH and BEAM but nonetheless it still contributes to the case.
What I am trying to get at is for people who’ve spent a good number of years investigating the case to then suddenly become its detractors over what appears to be trifles is to me the $64, 000 unanswered question.
How in the heck do you suddenly upon detecting a few anomalies which we always do anyway in the Meier case give that as an excuse to then become the enemy of truth and dismiss the all easy semi plausible deniability aspect when they should’ve already understood this aspect a long time ago.
I am talking about the intention behind Mehesh and others actions and not necessarily the actions themselves if you understand what I mean.
That really is the big question. Of course the outcome of all this, if I may take a shot at predicting, is that one day Mahesh will say, “See, I was only creating this skeptical scenario to show that the case is really ironclad, authentic beyond a reasonable doubt, even though some examples of very human inconsistencies were present, etc., etc., blah, blah, blah.”
BTW, Andy’s “point” about MUFON is extremely trivial and I can’t even understand what the issue is. It appears that he’s saying that out of 124 sentences, the word MUFON was added here:
71. In regard to that, take note especially of the coming worldwide organisation for ufological work, MUFON, because – along with various pathological know-it-alls and slanderers of truth – it will be your greatest adversary.
Or is he saying the whole sentence was added?
MH writes, “Here is the problem that I see. We have all of this stuff by Mahesh on Ice Man, the first page of which alone – that he has embraced and proclaimed as conclusive – is full of speculation, even though the scientists disagree. And so you want to spend more time going over all of the rest of his presentation despite the foundation already being weak.”
Wow. The evasiveness has taken on new heights. There is nothing speculative in Mahesh’s first page. Nothing at all. “Arrow” was not in the original publication, but only in the later publications of the CR. 100%, ironclad instance of backdating. I had taken great pains to make myself clear, and I think I was understood, but you still refuse to directly address this one demonstrable FACT. This IS the foundation of Mahesh’s work on the Ice Man, and the only part I have here brought up.
Lest anyone has been distracted by MH’s dog and pony show, which consists solely of evasive misdirection and ad hominem attacks, the FACTS established thus far are as follows:
1. In every “corroboration” thus far analyzed by Mahesh, Meier was found NOT to be truly the first publisher.
2. Certain parts of the Ice Man CR was backdated.
3. The name MUFON was backdated into the CR. As Mahesh notes:
“71. In regard to that, take note especially of the coming worldwide organisation for ufological work, MUFON, because – along with various pathological know-it-alls and slanderers of truth – it will be your greatest adversary.
This PPKB verse mentions the name and creation of the worldwide UFO organisation known as MUFON, but in all earlier editions, except SKB 2 (2nd ed.), there is no reference to any organisation other than the German UFO group…:
70. Especially take attention for the German central for ufological works, for she will become your greatest opponent.
…
Why was ‘German central for ufological works’ replaced with ‘worldwide organisation for ufological work, MUFON’? This is hardly explainable with a typo.”
4. The outer space photos, allegedly confirmed by Ptaah to be genuine, are 100% fake.
Also, I haven’t refused to address MMO. I’ve addressed it many times. Repeatedly I have said I simply don’t know how or why Meier would hoax — IF it is indeed a hoax. Speaking of which:
MH says, “you ARE accusing Meier of fraud, plain and simple.”
Wrong again. For the thousandth time, I have not said this. In fact, I had very recently said there may well be some explanation for these–lets call them, “errors”–that does not necessarily implicate Meier as being an outright fraud.
What I did say is that YOU are acting fraudulently. Plain and simple. By refusing to take down the Ice Man page, and now being fully aware that it was backdated, you are perpetrating fraud. 100%. Plain and simple. Ironclad. Beyond a shadow of a doubt.
I can give you means motive and opportunity on THAT instance of fraud if you’d like: The means and opportunity is your internet connection through which you put up a webpage making false claims (if albeit you did not know they were false when you put it up…but you now do know, thus it has now become purposefully fraudulent). The motive is you don’t want to admit that you were wrong, which you are apparently incapable of doing. Perhaps you are embarrassed for taking the CR at face value and not actually reviewing the original documents. It’s okay. We all did the same.
You should THANK Mahesh for catching your erroneous claims based on your shoddy research. He was able to do this by taking up the healthy degree of skepticism — that thing which you strangely despise, but yet which is fully built through and through into the sceintific method (which, strangely again, you nevertheless love to give lip service to).
Matt Lee, it doesn’t take a reading of the GOT to divine the basic facts of the matter. And how am I an “enemy of the truth” for drawing attention to MH’s error (which has now transformed into conscious fraud)? I think that’s more accurately referred to as being a PROPONENT of the truth. I assume your confusion arose because you take “truth” to be synonymous with the word of MH/Meier/FIGU — I don’t mean to offend, but this is virtually the definition of cultic belief.
So now it’s “2. Certain parts of the Ice Man CR was backdated.”, which would mean that you admit that the basic information was indeed published by Meier when he said it was and that you’re no longer making the still erroneous claim that all of it was.
Also, since attention to real and important details isn’t your specialty, further regarding the “besmirched with blood”, I’ve now pointed to the hidden-in-plain sight information about the taking of the garments, which one may deduce would be changed into if one’s own were besmirched with blood. Now let’s consider this, the weather conditions were described as a…storm, which usually involves some kind of moisture, as did the ice storm, etc. Therefore, my forensic genius friend, may we assume that if he put on “unbesmirched” garments, any remaining blood would have either been deliberately or consequently washed away by that storm from exposed body parts, i.e. hands and face…or by ensuing melts, storms, refreezings, melts,etc.?
I’m probably not alone in tiring of what is not only amateur, incompetent, illogical, speculative “reasoning” but the unrelenting accusations that Meier hoaxed anything.
Further, since each spare (and not so spare) moment that I take to peruse the information reveals yet more specific, pertinent, already present information that certainly substantiates the honesty of my position and conclusions – WHETHER YOU AGREE WITH THEM OR NOT – that unless you offer compelling proof that there’s ANYTHING “fraudulent” about my position, I’m now letting you know that I won’t post another comment of yours that contains such accusations.
Are we clear?
You are perfectly clear. And I laughed out loud when I read this ” since attention to real and important details isn’t your specialty…”. THE ONE singular detail I have been trying to get you to address you will not. The one detail also represents the one compelling proof you ask for. Namely, that the information about arrow — the part of the CR that would have made for the story a great corroboration– was missing from the original report. So yes, that part was backdated because it was found in the later publication but witout noting that it was added after the arrow was found. See, http://ufoprophet.blogspot.in/2014/09/should-billy-meier-be-awarded-1000000.html#axzz3Q3jfbwrT
But yes, the whole thing was backdated to a degree, because, no, the CR really was not circulated in the month that it says on it, as acknowledged by Elisabeth Moosbrugger here http://ufoprophet.blogspot.in/2014/09/should-billy-meier-be-awarded-1000000_27.html#axzz3HExfanFB.
So there is your compelling proof. Meier published nothing about the ice man before it was already publicly known — neither the discovery of the Ice Man itself, nor discovery of the arrow in his back. Thousands of words I’ve spent here to get you to acknowledge this and you go on and on about blood and cause of death. Simply there is no corroboration if there is no prior publications. That you claim Meier should receive the million big ones is laughable. But further, now that I have drawn this to your attention for the umpteenth time, yes, it is fraudulent to say Meier was told this or that before discovery of the body and the arrow — because its simply not true.
Are we clear?
I’m sure you will want to let this last post go through, because it offers the compelling proof you asked for and because you yourself constantly criticize others for blocking on-topic comments on their respective blogs. But then I’ll be done for a while. Though it’s been interesting and your extremely ironic adjectives and insults make me laugh, I see this is hopelessly going no where, as it is virtually impossible to get you to stay on topic.
You think you know what being “on topic” means, which is itself ironic considering that you’re an armchair expert who’s made bold assertions about the character and honesty of two people. Because you really can’t think, though you feel all puffed up with certainty that this is a hoax, you can enjoy your month, year or whatever, as events continue to unfold and fulfill, leaving any thinking person to conclude that this – and the rest of the information in the Meier case – is indeed authentic and truthful, as the preponderance of evidence and the consideration of MMO reveal.
You’ve had your say and we’ll leave it up to others to decide what they think.
I’ll have only one other question for you, what will you say when the Meier case is known to be true and when skepticism about the case and Meier’s truthfulness and authenticity is held by very few, mainly the religious, ignorant, etc.?
And to anticipate the question, I’ve long known that it’s true based on my research, my personal contacts with Meier, his family, other witnesses, my own sighting, information from the Plejaren, etc. And certainly until Meier or FIGU state that the information was altered/backdated, or actual proof is presented rather than flawed speculation, my page and I will both stand for it all being as presented.
P.S. — I began this exchange simply wanting to help you out. To let you know how silly your Ice Man webpage looks in light of Mahesh’s findings, i.e., that Meier did not prior publish concerning the Ice Man (and it’s even worse than that, because the arrow part was later added in later publications which gives a hint of deception and would further raise red flags for the skeptic). I was just trying to help you tighten up your case.
But instead of being thanked, like any non-fanatical person would do, I was simply repeatedly insulted as to my intelligence and my motives. This is why this exchange got as nasty as it did.
Good day and good month.
Now that I have a spare moment I’ll address this comment of yours. Instead of trying to “help me out”, you would do well to consider…character. You apparently neither know what it is, nor the importance of it and your freewheeling, unsubstantiated attacks against both mine and Meier’s indicates that you don’t possess too much of it yourself, at this point in your life.
In the manner of trying to lead a horse to water, I and others repeatedly directed you to address MMO in your accusations against Meier. You stubbornly refused, avoided, talked around it and tried to relegate it to irrelevancy. However, had you done what others here have already done – and even spelled out for you – you would have been able to notice and correctly assess Meier’s…character.
Along with MMO, consideration of a person’s character can be a very important factor in any legal proceeding. Since you’ve already slandered/libeled Meier and me, should you be held legally accountable you’d defintely have to substantiate your claims with MMO AND addressing our character, i.e. especially any actual evidence of prior wrongdoing, lying, hoaxing, “fraudulent” behavior, etc. Think not?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Character_evidence
Since Meier is the actual issue here, what I and others have tried to point out is that, in addition to zero MMO evidence against him, it’s absolutely inconsistent with his character to have hoaxed ANYTHING…even if you THINK that’s the only explanation for whatever inconsistencies you perceive.
In fact, if you took all of your accusatory statements against both him and me, along with what you think is actual proof supporting your assertions, and showed them to whomever is teaching you criminal/trial law, I think we’d all be very interested in their…”critique”.
So add the study and personal pursuit of character to your to-do list; put it at the…top.
P.S. And if you want to do something more useful – professionally and personally – learn how MMO and character are used and…make an argument in Meier’s favor based on them. See which argument is more compelling, that he “hoaxed” anything or that MMO and character show that the greater likelihood is that he didn’t.
You’re welcome.
MH .as you very well know .Nothing is too harsh in light of this matter and “must” be ruled with an Iron fist !
Well Michael as we now, and they in the future, know and will come to know, they are on the wrong of history but history will eventually show how good their practise run as detractors were and the generous examples set of the pitfalls they have encountered for more of their kind to come in the future.
What Mehesh and others have failed to understand during their zeal for deconstructing the case is that it took him a fair amount of his life hours trying to get to the bottom of 1 anomalous aspect of Billy’s information
Doesn’t this alone tell you how no matter how much you project onto the truth your own suspicion and often wishful thinking the truth cannot be deconstructed because the truth is the truth therefore the best policy is to accept it.
Hey Matt, you’re…thinking. That’s cheating.
My bad
Well you may as well call me a repeat offender but my motto is ‘if you can’t beat em, join em’
Haha
Thanks for noticing the missing “e” Marco.
Man Mike’s web is increasing in vitality and reasoning, probably cause the hits/attacks on Mikes blog has ceased into reimaginationland.
I heard somewhere on the news that Greece elected a new government but there were protest about Merkhal the German chancler who MAY turn into another Hitler due to the EU and its totalitory take over of not just Europe be the entire planet. I don`t know if I got this right but you better watch out due to Billy`s Henoch prophecies seems to becoming to life since nobody is really paying any attention lately.”Keep an eye out this could be the starting point of something REALLY DICEY”? something is really starting to go on behind our backs by closed doors.There is an old saying that goes ” Better safe than sorry”.
Cant stop laughing at this woman COLLEN THOMAS as a pleidian contactee..WHAT A LIER…Watch “Pleiadian Contactee on Live Television Exposes Evil Agenda” on YouTube
Pleiadian Contactee on Live Television Exposes Evil Agenda: http://youtu.be/MJ7GZHjhRA8
Look at all the likes the video has just to show how many brain dead fools are out there eating up that garbage…….These kinds of people are deluded to the highest power
Well it’s not like most of what she was talking about isn’t a known fact, but still a little cray cray if you ask me.
Andy said “The speed of light thing does not impress me that much. Supposing for the moment that there are no Plejaren, Meier would likely be getting some help from some powerful people to have pulled this thing off. With that in mind, there are many so-called “new discoveries” that are not really new. I happen to know that academic journals will not publish certain things, or even scientists work will be completely shut down if the work touches upon things “they” don’t want made public yet. (Consider that certain terrestrial groups supposedly already have anti-gravity technology at their disposal). That is to say, it is entirely possible a handful of elites were already aware the speed of light is not constant…they coulda told Meier to write it down.”
Where is your evidence that thousands of elites were able to give Billy Meier the answers to thousands of questions?
Indeed, it would seem logical that Mr. LSAT should be the one to whom the elites were/are giving information. So…where is it?
Has anyone referred Mr. LSAT to the Plejaren psychopath self test evaluation? According to the 70 unvalues… I think number 21 is a hit and perhaps he could try to self evaluate his character in order to create peace.
However in Poker game I will hold at 21.
LOL good one.
http://www.futureofmankind.co.uk/Billy_Meier/FIGU_Special_Bulletin_68 Here Andy FYI.
Andy needs to put the Brugal down! SIL!
His evidence is located somewhere within the twilight zone…..Maybe he should channeling the Pleiadians!!
Exactly. Surely if he was good at deducing things, he should be able to come up with the names of thousands of scientists/elitists who personally gave Billy the answers. Come on Andy, who are these powerful people who are unable to write new discoveries but would be willing to go to Billy’s house and let him know?
I have an idea Sheila it’s the Scientists, Doctors, Technologists, Linguists, Historians, Archeologists, Pilots, Horticulturalists, Physicists, Astronomers, Chemists, Spiritualists, Time Travellers, Militarists, Psychologists, Astrobiologists, Mathmaticians, Teachers, Sociologists, Collectors, Geniuses and so on by the name of Ptaah, Quetzal, Semjase, Asket, Alena, Florena, Taljda, Menara, Pleija, Nera, Sfath, Andron, Danel, Rala, Isados, Elektra, Asina, Ektol, Sana, Zeltan, Solar, Lumia, Ters, Tauron, Enjana, Samjang, Fetanika, Zafenatpaneach, Sudor, Queda, Gaudon, Tanissa, Taneta, Inobea, Nefratisa, Safarina, Sugam, Nejdesha, Melchora, Xeruel, Clendena Aikarina, Jespan, Susanka, Urlana, Xeruela and Xeruala.
Talk about super elites of elites!
Haha you know it.
Andy,
“So you simply and stupidly sit there and accuse the man of fraud – because YOU can’t think. I’ve spent 35 years, not just sitting at a computer but taking 14 trips to Switzerland, to investigate, interview, question, walk the land where photos were taken, even tried to trick Meier myself, 4 times in three years…and along with knowing how to think deductively, weigh and evaluate evidence, interviewing the original investigators, being one of the more than 100 witnesses myself, receiving accurate information before the fact from the Plejaren…I really am almost in awe of your incompetence, presumptuousness, bull-headed, dull-mindedness…as well as how characterless and shallow you are to attack someone in the manner you do.”
Does this not hold any weight with you? Or if you don’t like Michael or accept his ground work investigations do you not respect the work Wendell Stevens did? How can you take the word of a person sitting at a computer trying to debunk something with evidence he can’t prove Meier had access to and neglect people that actually did the ground work and saw things you or Mahesh haven’t? And I’m not coming at you I just want to understand your frame of mind and the way you think. And then again I say if (And its a big if) Meier had access to these scientific reports wouldn’t he be setting himself up for failure stating that he knows these things are fact when in the scientific reports they were presented as theory? Not even the scientist knew that what they were saying was fact at the time it was mainly speculation, so (And its a big so) if Meier came behind them stating what they were saying was fact won’t that still make him a prophet seeing that he knew it would be proven to be so without knowledge? Come on now.
And now ask yourself even if you or Mahesh try to claim that Meier was wrong about the ‘Ice Man’s’ death. How in the hell would a man all the way up in the Swiss mountains have any clue about a 5,100 year old mummy buried in the Alps? Like come on dude, really-REALLY! Months before they discovered the body, really! Like I don’t know if you were just lagging onto the Meier case until someone came along with evidence that debunked it but I don’t think that person is here yet or will ever be. I do think Michael has a point of people not thinking and really thinking because the points I’ve just laid out should be clear to anyone asking if this case is true or not. I think that guy Mahesh has a gripe against Michael for whatever reason and is coming up with anything he can find to make him look back but in the process its making him (Mahesh) look worst. The evidence in the Meier case speaks for itself especially the evidence that is ironclad you really have to ask how he knew these things and it can’t be from no damn Elitist giving him answers cause they seem to not know a damn thing themselves.
COME ON DUDE, REALLY!
The other thing that these geniuses should have noted was that in the 7th Contact Semjase tells Meier that the ozone information she was discussing with him wasn’t for broad public use but rather to prepare his group with the knowledge so that they would become active in warning scientists about the dangers of destructive, death-bringing developments. She then gives her information, which one can also see would be recognized by scientists as accurate in terms of things that, certainly, Meier and his group otherwise wouldn’t KNOW at the time.
At the end of Contact 25, Wendelle Stevens mentions the…1975 letter sent (registered) to McElroy – and “every foreign embassy and legation in Switzerland” – by Meier. Now, only a brain dead, conspiracy loving, angry, skeptic would even try to insinuate that Meier backdated any information that is already being forwarded to McELROY…TWO YEARS BEFORE the SKB 1 came out. But go ahead, show us what geniuses we’re dealing with here…ask to see the registered receipts.
Get a life. And try…paying for your education, it just may yield better results.
Any person who is of a certain level of intelligence or understanding would not question Billy’s integrity or that the contacts are real. In fact, a person “knows” what is real intuitively, as many do. The people who don’t “know” either don’t want to know, or they do know and are “on the other side”.
And if there are any more highly developed people living on the earth at this time, they would certainly know and remember who “BEAM” is! Sorry for the rant. . . .
Oh do please rant away.
It seems that for one I want to illustrate a summarized brief version of my thoughts concerning MMO and Billy Meier. I hope it is not to long.
Means: lest it be said 1,000,000 times how a one armed, poor, ‘uneducated'(as he only made it to 5th-6th grade in formal school), rural Swiss farmer, father, husband, nights guardsman could pull all this off. It is obvious from the notes that the man struggled monetarily through much of the beginning decades, as more and more people saw his validity and met the truth with what they could individually offer in this regard. On this, it is also to say that he seemed to have little means in accomplishing all this while constantly being surrounded and watched by all manors of people. Including family, friends, neighbors, governments, investigators, assassins. One would also think someone wanting to perpetuate such a fantastic hoax would be more than wanting and willing to process their own film. To end this segment it is rather apparent to the younger generations that life was very different in the 70’s and 80’s. Let alone being in America, to being in the rural Swiss alps non the less. Calculators, personal computers, bar codes, cable tv were all a thing of the future. And books with any amount of compiled real time data where often outdated after they were printed and circulated, let alone cost a tremendous amount to obtain.
Motive: What would be the motive to have over 20+ assassination attempts on ones life. Let alone in a seemingly benign fashion, as he most certainly seemed to be able to shrug these events of with little regard for his own material life? He did not seem to dwell on these events in a way that would show them as being anything other than what they were.
It couldn’t have been for the money, as so many seem to love to create within their imagination. The guy declined multiple million dollar movie deals! Drove around on a frig-gen moped and was constantly sharing his entire life, and dwelling with many people beyond his family. What was his motive, to have the best evidence and ask the littlest from it…. seemingly though the most, individually through personal thought. All the while sacrificing his own life and family for some fraud that benefited the man in basically no fashion.
Opportunity: Now being a father, boyfriend, and family man myself. It utterly perplexes me to see how and where there is time to even begin this sort of en devour, while still trying to not starve to death… and make a living! Where is this opportunity that has allowed this to continue for some 73 years? Especially when the man was put on the spot untold times by many people to back up his claims. Which he seemed to be able to accomplish to the amazement of many around him. Let alone what he was able to write down and accomplish on paper! Which in the grand scheme of things seems to defy the very meaning of opportunity in this world. It truly is out of this world…. and will continue to be for many.
One of my favorite witnesses to Billy’s experiences comes from a farmer who lived not to far from him. Billy was instructed to go to a certain area to take pictures/videos? and had to enter a farmers pasture to get to the area. Billy pulled up to the farmers house on his moped hoping to get through the gate to do his work and was granted access by the farmer. The farmer said it was just Billy, moped, and camera. Billy went through and awhile later came back out with the farmer letting him through the gate ones again. Yet, on his film it is clear to this farmer that the pictures taken are from his pasture, though what is not so easy to explain is what is hovering in the sky above it. This is a memory recollection of one of MANY examples of what is and did happen thousands of miles away from America, for decades! One should think heavily of what is possible in their own lives and gauge that based on what could be accomplished in the shared view of what this one armed man has accomplished. In a rather selfless fashion as far as I see it. And though I could have written a book on these three words and this ‘case’. I don’t want to take up to much space in spitting this out. Food for thought non the less.
This is just skimming the surface as far as what could be presented within this sphere. For one willing to take the plunge into thought, that is.
One thing that has been on my mind all day today at work, would be Billy’s moped. It is a fact that many have gone and looked at some of the sights pictures and videos have been taken within. And my own spitting out of a witnesses testimony, there is no doubt that billy was not faking his pictures! To actually pull of what is needed in the case of some of these pictures, billy would need to pull up in an 18 wheeler or bigger, let alone a moped. Hard to hide those pesky models on a moped!
In the end no one will verify the information more than oneself. Not the Plejaren, Billy, Michael, or Mahesh. One major factor that makes this shine in the light of truth, is its total dependance on the individual to do their own work in coming to a personal conclusion. Personally, I take the stance as an individual. With my own insight and interpretation that steers me towards my own comprehensions. Maybe sometimes we seem to rely on others to verify and or question the truth for us, instead of from within ourselves in the end. What does Mahesh have that the rest of us don’t? Especially when it comes to people that obviously don’t have the time and energy to put out a complete verification. Those that have obviously not done the basic initial work to make a standing opinion, for themselves non the less. Therefor, personally it seems nothing short of a waste to bicker about such trivial pieces of such an amazing and wide spread ‘case’. There is more important things to concentrate on, like our own future survival. Will always be something, even when ones foot is smashed by a landing beam ship. I am sure when we are in all out war, it will be blamed on someone else, other than the individual, whom was responsible for their own actions, as one is to another.
Definitely true Phillip and these simple logical ideas that arise in us when we do think for ourselves such as what you said about Billy’s moped cannot come from people trying so hard to debunk the case because they’re not trying to understand it in the first place…..
Excellent!
Would Mahesh care to find the Horsehead Nebula photo that Billy supposedly copied from 1975? He only alludes to them having been in common circulation at that time – because it was discovered in 1888 there should be thousands of photos of it (sil). All I can google are Horsehead Nebulas from 2001 as the oldest qualifying photo. Surely Mahesh has done his due diligence and found the ones in circulation in 1975 before spouting off how common those photos were in that year.
Splendid discussion chaps and chicks , however , did you even think about the first person ever to deduce that bromine gasses from previous nuclear tests and such did so much damage ? probably a few like Bruce or Andy , but the rest of us wheeeee . Bromine gas destroys the ozone protective layer in the stratosphere . We , collectively have tested no less that two hundred nuclear weapons on this earth . Hundreds were in the stratosphere to ‘see what happened’ . I hope that pisses you off , because I am mad as hell . My dad was on the first nuclear submarine called the USS Lafayette . He told of the insanity regarding testing . And remember , this never left my mind , and sub in any location can destroy the entire planet times ten . Just great . We have twelve in the US and Russia is shipping them on top of carriers into the Arctic . We are an insane people . Starving people on the streets , yet billions spent on killing everything ! FU to anyone involved in such a concept including my Dad . FU
You know , I am so pissing mad at the history channel and such , I have tried to contact the light in the sky chasers including georgio , and boom , dead end . They can go up in flames as they are just a tool . I even tried to get a way in to hanger 1 or 13 and they too suck . No way in . So I say its a joke . An entire entertainment joke . Bye . You suck #$@@$@@$$@@.
Rupert Sheldrake has for some time spoken of the non-constancy of the speed of light for some time. I clearly recall his anecdotes but, despite searching for several minutes, haven’t been able to discover precisely when he first published the information (the paper dealing with the matter has been removed from his site it seems – http://www.sheldrake.org/experiments/constants/ perhaps).
It is also possible that he spoke of the discovery well prior to publishing, as he was quite active in taping videos in the 1980s (trialogues especially), and perhaps in the late 1970s as well.
The story goes that in the course of doing some adjacent research he discovered the regular discrepancies in the speed of light between 1928 and 1945. He sought out and approached the Chief Metrologist (the “science” of setting such standards and measures) in the UK who admitted to him the major problem this data had at one time posed for his field, causing all “metered” measurements to actually alter, should they actually take the fluctuation into account as I understand it. The Chief Metrologist explained to Sheldrake that the problem had been solved by ceasing independent laboratory measurements of the Speed in lieu of researchers using the “set value” which was simply dictated by his “science”!!!
Rather astounding and idiotic.
In any case, I can’t recall or now find when Sheldrake met with this Metrologist or when he first published (in writing or via recording) this information. It may have been in his 1980-1981 breakout book. It may have been in a scientific paper prior to this.
What can be said though is, as obscure as this would have been, especially in the period before an internet existed, is that some sort of stir would have been created, and announcements made of Metrology’s decision to “set” this value in 1972 I believe. Though I also see that others contrarily say the decision and value concretization took place in the early 1980s.
It must then be said that this knowledge concerning the variability of the speed of light has, in the modern era, existed on planet Earth for some time.
Again, Meier isn’t a scientist. And his information in that contact, as it is in so many others, is not, never is theoretical or speculative. It does seem, however, to always turn out to be correct later.
Certainly if something has been determined to be this, or that, a constant, etc., then it stands to reason also that discussions, theories, etc., about the possibility of it not being so have arisen. But there’s a difference between theories and established facts.