How Johnny-come-lately “co-discoverer of Apophis”, was reduced to an anecdotal asteroidal asterisk…by a “Swiss farmer”
Recently, Brigitte de Roch invited me to participate in what we thought would be an enlightening conversation, about asteroid Apophis, that she initiated with Dave Tholen, an astronomer, who thinks he and two other people “co-discovered” it.
We thought that Tholen could be instrumental in helping warn people that there’s a far greater threat of impact than he’s assumed.
Roy Tucker, Dave Tholen, Fabrizio Bernardi
However, Tholen wasn’t interested in examining Meier’s information about Apophis, dating back to 1981…23 years before Tholen’s non-discovery.
Below are some excerpts from Tholen’s responses. Since they came from his email account, we assumed that they were his words, and not those of a 10-year-old masquerading as him:
I’m a Vulcan, trained at the Vulcan Science Academy, devoted to logic. Would you like to see my pointed ears, my green blood, my starship?
You are erroneously presupposing that Billy Meier’s information is accurate.
Perhaps Billy Meier saw my shuttlecraft while in transit between my starship and the Earth’s surface.
Astronauts flying in primitive spacecraft compared to my warp-driven starship. What do they know?
Frankly, I don’t care if Billy Meier has 100 percent accuracy about predicting his next bout of acid reflux; that says nothing about his credibility regarding Apophis.
Oh, so you now consider yourself to be a “scientist”! You’ve overspecialized in Billy Meier. And you’ve not responded to my repeated requests for his “precise, impeccably accurate, scientific information”. Of course; once compared with reality, it would be obvious how impeccably inaccurate Billy Meier’s information really is.
Vulcans like me have purged all emotion via the Kolinahr ritual.
You doubt that I’m a Vulcan?
You forgot that I am a Vulcan.
Where are these alleged warnings? Given that it wasn’t discovered until 2004, they could not have known in 1981 that it was coming toward Earth.
I’ve collected 17 years of high-quality astrometric data on Apophis that demonstrate it will not hit the Earth in the next century, as you can find in the published scientific literature.
I pointed out that, unlike the evidence from Billy Meier, Tholen’s collected data is, of course…subject to change. His responses:
Subject to improvement.
Regarding the impeccable accuracy of Meier’s and the Plejaren’s information:
Illogical; you’re claiming infallibility on the part of Billy Meier.
You have no concept of “scientists”, as indicated by your ridiculous concept of “proof”.
Please inform Matt Knight of this opinion, as he has been referring to Billy Meier’s alleged communications with extraterrestrials, which have never been proven to even exist.
“Feel free to pester whomever you consider to be the ‘actual experts’.Surely the Plejarens could accommodate your request for time travelto talk with a now-dead astronaut.”
I imagine Tholen has the same respect and regard for his “now-dead” partner, who also thought he “co-discovered” Apophis.
As for Robert Joyner’s comments about the evidence, Tholen said:
Perhaps you could learn something from that trial lawyer/prosecutor, as you clearly do not understand what constitutes evidence.
Try and Try Again
Tholen didn’t respond to any of the information, ignoring it as he ignored Meier’s Apophis information. And he tried to skirt around the issue about copyrights stating:
Copyrights have nothing to do with accuracy of information.
Keep rattling the cage Mr. Horn, Matt, Brigitte, and everyone else who participates in this form of outreach because eventually it will bear fruit, and happy dancing fruit at that!
I see nothing but an abundance of immaturity and arrogance. That’s the true pandemic on this planet. It appears that In most cases, the higher the credentials, the worse they get.
I also get the familiar sense of fear Mellissa. That quantity of derogatory, belittling and juvenile responses screams of someone trying desperately to discredit and distance himself from Meier, likely because this is not the first time he has been confronted by the name and information. Note the passive dig at his deceased colleague?
Science is, first and foremost, the expertise in truth seeking, and anyone who fails to even quantify vital information from a neutral standpoint for the persuit of truth within a scientific environment but instead falsifies it or supresses it for financial incentives or rejects with a quite alarming level of vitriol and petulance, especially in the way Tholen has done, immediately rules out a mature, scientifically oritentated intelligence but instead another anointed charlatan with fancy titles who wants Apophis to be his one chance opportunity to put his otherwise obscure name in the history books.
In this case I totally agree with you.
That’s fantastic.
Tholen is such a child!
In response to that ridiculous Vulcan BS I would posit to him that if he were a true “Vulcan” they would follow logic and reason and would never immediately disregard something that they don’t understand as they would investigate for further information because that’s what advanced civilizations and mature people do.
Vulcans don’t want to look like complete fools when presented with information that has legal copyright credibility from a source who produced a mountain of physical evidence that has yet to be explained, reproduced or disregarded as a hoax so I would suggest Tholen tread lightly in areas he doesn’t understand or refuse to acknowledge because of his immature/fear based nature.
Tholen needs to stop living in fear of things he doesn’t understand by making pathetic jokes about it. He needs to act like an actual “scientist” as his credentials paint him to be and actually do some research before passing judgement with absolutely no knowledge of what he’s looking at.
Tholen needs to grow up and realize his response isn’t logical and unbefiting of a true “Vulcan”.
Live Long and prosper “Dave”. Maybe one day you’ll live long enough to grow a pair and act logically like the Vulcan you so desperately want to be.
Your answer is *chef’s kiss*!! As a fan of Star Trek you couldn’t have explained it better!
He forgot that Vulcans in Star Trek knows telepathy. Maybe he thought Vulcans were people living inside a volcano also better know as cavemen?
“Vulcans NEVER lie!”
As BEAM often says “Bohnenstrohdumm”, and truly these “experts” are often dumber than bean straw!
If only scientists would give some clear warning about Apophis like calling it red or something.
Here’s a recent email I sent to Dave Tholen…
From: Matt Knight
Sent: 05 April 2023
To: Dave Tholen
You are interested in Pluto, right?
Explain this…
Date and time of contact: Thursday, 24th April 2008
Date of original translation: Wednesday, 1st July 2020
“43. Finally, there is Pluto, which is moving away from the sun and whose atmospheric pressure is increasing very strongly.”
https://www.futureofmankind.co.uk/Billy_Meier/Contact_Report_463
Published online: 21 September 2021
“Our estimated pressure shows a continuation of the pressure increase trend observed since 1988 and does not confirm the rapid pressure decrease tentatively reported in 2019“
https://www.aanda.org/articles/aa/abs/2021/09/aa41718-21/aa41718-21.html
——————————-
Dave’s “thoughts” on my email:
“Your lack of scientific literacy is showing.” (Ooh… Vader vibes!)
“It shows that Meier is as scientifically illiterate as you are.” (No detailed explanation as to how though. Poor really… for a scientist responsible for saying Apophis is no threat).
“How ironic, coming from someone who doesn’t understand the concept of thermal lag.” According to my findings, it was NASA who didn’t understand this until after Meier, as I hope I’ve explained below….
——————————–
Notes:
In 2008, when Billy was discussing Pluto’s atmosphere in CR 463, and even in 2020 when that information had been published and translated into English, astronomers noted that Pluto’s atmospheric pressure was both increasing and decreasing. In other words, they didn’t know before Meier’s published information suggesting that he did know.
Since around the mid to late 1990’s it had been observed that Pluto was, “moving farther and farther away from the sun, so its surface temperature has been going down” and the expectation, from all seasonal models, suggested that this would freeze Pluto’s atmosphere and so reduce its atmospheric pressure because Pluto’s surface would be getting colder.
That expectation received support in the few opportunities for gathering evidence such NASA’s in 2015 when it was observed that, “Pluto’s Atmospheric Pressure Has Sharply Decreased” and when this was, “the first time we have ground truth, measuring the surface pressure at Pluto, giving us an invaluable perspective on conditions at the surface of the planet”. Supporting those findings from 2015, “July 2019, showed a decrease in the pressure rate of about 21% compared to the latest reported data from a stellar occultation in 2016”
As mentioned in my email to Dave Tholen, it wasn’t until 2021 that it had been published that Pluto’s, “pressure shows a continuation of the pressure increase trend observed since 1988 and does not confirm the rapid pressure decrease tentatively reported in 2019”
and also it could be confidently stated in 2021 that, “Thanks to a phenomenon known as thermal inertia, Pluto’s surface pressure and atmospheric density continued to rise until 2018. Essentially, Pluto had residual heat from when it was closer to the sun. However, the inertia starting to wear off and, as Pluto gets colder, more and more of its atmosphere will freeze back onto its surface and “disappear.”
Personally, I find it remarkable that Meier published something about Pluto’s atmospheric pressure so confidently before that had been verified by the only people on Earth with the equipment to do that, i.e., that Pluto was “moving away from the sun” AND that its “atmospheric pressure is increasing very strongly” at the time of Meier’s explanation and in terms that anyone can understand.
If you accept that Meier had that information in CR 648 in 2008, then how could he know this when extrapolating the 1988 data into anything useful about Pluto’s atmospheric pressure wasn’t completed or fully understood until 2015 when the atmospheric model, named DO15, had been created and when, “A drop in Pluto’s atmospheric pressure was reported from 2008 to 2010”
Were Meier backdating his information from 2020 to 2008 as critics’ would likely claim, he would have said that Pluto’s atmospheric pressure was decreasing, as that was what had been observed, expected and published in 2015 and 2019.
It is fair to say that some astronomers had theorised that Pluto was experiencing thermal inertia (retained heat under Pluto’s surface from being close to the sun which actually increased Pluto’s atmospheric pressure) but this wasn’t verified until the further observations in 2020 showed that increase and which were only published after the 2020 publication year of CR 458.
Please let me know how I’m being scientifically illiterate in the above as it feels like I’ve been slipped crazy biscuits when trying to explain this as simply as I can to an “expert” but I could be wrong and am open to that?
Worryingly, the above information does show that it takes astronomers a long time to work out the effects of the sun on space objects, which doesn’t augur well for them working out what the Yarkovsky, or any other, effect will be on Apophis in time to then be able to effectively divert it, especially when “experts” like Dave claim that Meier is “scientifically illiterate” and that Apophis definitely won’t hit in 2029 or 2036.
Sorry, where I’ve stated “CR 648” and “CR 458” in the above post should be “CR 463”. I’m tired and still at it with Dave as he’s desperate to get the last word.
He sounds like someone who can no longer distinguish between reality and his fantasy world.
He thinks that Billy Meier is a joke because he’s been led to believe that aliens, who are usually portrayed as bug-like or little Grays, only exist in the minds of crazy people. The stupid governments have done tremendous damage by turning UFOs and extraterrestrials into conspiracy theories. The people should have been told the truth from the very beginning. And now, these stupid and lunatic scientists are afraid of the truth. They’re more concerned about what their colleagues will think of them than a 350 meter space rock slamming us upside the head.
It’s appalling that he’s a scientist.
Agreed. Many are lacking intelligentum.
Dave told us early in the conversation that he “collects data”, yet he wouldn’t and couldn’t comment intelligently on the enormous, most accurate scientific – as well as environmental, geopolitical, medical and economic – data of all time. (Of course I didn’t include or refer to any of the other kinds of data.) Kind of like Robin Hanson. If they don’t get things pre-packaged with a bow on top, they’re unwilling and incapable of thinking for themselves, examining it for what it is, using scientific protocols.
Next week, there’ll be an article on yet another high-level expert. Stay tuned.
“Agreed, so much for Phony Dave.”
Reading his answers upsets me. Why can’t he answer like a normal Adult?! Sure he’s a skeptic but why answer the way he did? His answers say so much about him, being an immature and stupid (aka non-thinking) person! Ugh, I can’t deal with people like him. I take my hat off for Michael, Brigitte and everyone that sends all these emails and deals with brain dead people.
That`s Straw Bean Dead Know It Alls
Are we certain that Tholen didn’t forget the adjective in front of his claim to be Vulcan? The only thing missing from an otherwise perfectly petulent response would have been to claim to be a transvulcan.
In that case, let me only say to Dave, “Live long and perspire.”
Thanks for the giggle, Michael.
“Live long and perspire”!
Sure Mij, no…sweat!
Just look at what happened to for example Immanuel Velikovsky or Kristian Birkeland, they made discoveries that were so controversial they were ridiculed and ostracized.
Later on when technology progressed and observations were made that supported them there was often no mention of credit.
Most scientists are now from an establishment now trained to look for funding not the truth, and science is overcomplicated with extravagant words that have to be learned at the expense of a great deal of time.
“A good scientist is well aware of their limited scope of knowledge, no matter how great it may be.”
People in high up positions, the ones you need to reach, are often there because they are self proclaimed positions and often have the last say on the matter whether they are qualified or not, the humble researcher is often open minded and has no position of power or celebrity, they may have an open mind as often all they want to do is learn the truth themselves.
I have been educated in science, currently pursuing a career in computational biology and have worked previously on experimental projects in neuroscience, synthetic biology and other fields.
When it comes to the mindset and the academic environment these days, the situation is quite catastrophic.
I do understand the need and the necessity of coming forward with the material here. I have been studying it for many years, as probably many of us here. If may, I would like to share my thoughts on the subject, so bear with me for the few paragraphs below.
I am still early in my career (working as a doctoral student) nevertheless I have already experienced, studied and worked in 4 different countries (not in the US though).
To be fair, most scientists abandoned any sense of greater responsibility for the knowledge they create and what’s worse, fewer and fewer academics think that it even should be their concern. They get more and more disconnected from the true reality. Like most people these days, I guess. The only difference is that the dissociation happens not through misinformation or religion or any other similar factor but, to put it simply, because of the excess of knowledge and the sheer BELIEF in purely material. All too often I have seen fanboy-like behaviour of my colleagues, treating certain scientific journals or scientific “gurus” as the alpha and omega, ostracising views other than their own, ridiculing, inflating their ego etc. etc. Those who read contact reports and books, will know very well that abandoning religious thinking, does not mean that you are free of it. Most replace one materialistic way of thinking for another.
I would like to add that I personally, try to reach out with the material to some people around me. I am working on becoming more proactive in that regard but… Whether I will try to reach out to other scientists? No. Certainly not in the near future as I can barely deal with the academic environment as it is. Do I discourage anyone from doing so? No. For me personally, the current ‘scientific endeavour’ of humanity is a lost cause but if you feel like trying, do try to reach out to the youngest or, on the contrary, the elderly scientists. Quite simply, the youngest researchers still might be open enough to get interested in it. The elderly emeritus professors and scientists have simply nothing to lose. Like fire, avoid mid-career scientists or “experts/gurus in the field”. It is just an insider’s advice.
Real science is indeed a beautiful but arduous way forward. As you move along, your vehicle, that is technology, gets refined. But the driver is the key. He has to SEE, NAVIGATE and be mindful of turns, dangers and dead ends. Take responsibility for every action on the road. Predict the actions of others. Know the rules of the surroundings. Forsee the consequences. Set the destination. Take breaks and reevaluate. Get lost and unlost.
In other words, apply the spiritual teachings.
I must admit until the last century the driver was simply blind. Nowadays there is no driver anymore. And we are headed for a dead end.
So here, apparently life is going to imitate art. With Apophis, it’s going to be like the movies: The egomaniacal scientific establishment is going to ignore the evidence because it doesn’t come from within its august little cloister. When acknowledging the truth becomes unavoidable, it’s either too late to save Earth humanity, or damn close to it. It hasn’t escaped my notice that among our extraterrestrial forebears, scientists were among some of the evillest offenders in our (much longer than scientists tell us) history.
Redness of Neptunian asteroids sheds light on early solar systemhttps://phys.org/news/2023-03-redness-neptunian-asteroids-early-solar.html
“Of the 18 observed Neptunian Trojans, several were much redder than most asteroids, and compared with other asteroids in this group looked at in previous studies. Redder asteroids are expected to have formed much further from the sun; one population of these is known as the Cold Classical trans-Neptunian objects found beyond the orbit of Pluto, at around 6 billion kilometers from the sun. The newly observed Neptunian Trojans are also unlike asteroids located in the orbit of Jupiter, which are typically more neutral in color.”
Red Meteor
https://www.futureofmankind.co.uk/Billy_Meier/Contact_Report_150
Quetzal:
492. Neither, my friend.
493. The meteor mentioned in the prophecies, which will have an enormous size and will cause very vicious destruction on Earth, and which besides climatic also threatens to bring tectonic and other changes, will also threaten to split the Earth’s crust, from today’s North Sea to the Black Sea, which however does not have to be true with certainty, because today certain factors speak against it.
494. It is coming towards the SOL-System from the depths of space and is, so to speak, an alien.
Billy:
You mean it is not a known comet that keeps making its orbit through our system?
Quetzal:
495. That is of correctness, because this meteor is flying on an orbit that will lead it to the SOL-System for the first time.
496. It has never been to this area of space in earlier times.
Billy:
And its journey is to end on Earth? Is there nothing you can do about it?
Quetzal:
497. You know very well that it will be so and that we must not stop this happening.
498. The cosmic forces themselves have pre-programmed this event, which could only be stopped or averted by the Earth-humans themselves.
499. In their materialistic and misleading disunity and in their megalomania, however, they disregard all warnings and prophecies, so that the event will probably inevitably come to pass, as a reminder and a punishment, if you want to see it in that manner.
500. And since this must be a warning and a rebuke, we must also not take any steps to avert the event.
501. Earth-humans should listen to your words and admonitions, but that is precisely what they do not do.
502. You are standing on a lost post, as a caller in the wilderness, and only a few are and will be willing to hear your words, to grasp them, to think about them and to learn to act correctly.
503. The non-hearing will find many deaths for this, when the meteor begins its work of death and creates a new part of the Earth, through a vast rift of the Earth from the North Sea to the Black Sea, out of which the glowing lava will pour, if the prophecy should be fully fulfilled, which, however, is not yet determined to the last consequence.
Wow, another great find.
“Very very scary!”
Its not from Neptune as far as i can tell from the contact reports
“182. And concerning the changes caused in the Oort cloud by the Dark Star, they are based in the fact that in the innumerable and existent in thousands of millions of smallest, small, large and largest rock, ice and metal fragment formations a tremendous movement takes place and that partly large formations are hurled as meteors out of the Oort cloud into orbits of the inner SOL system.183. A major chain of such meteors has already been on its way to the inner SOL system for many decades and has partly also already passed the Earth or exploded high in the Earth’s atmosphere.184. This happens because the Dark Star penetrated directly into the sphere of action of the Oort cloud a long time ago and has been causing severe disturbances ever since.”
and
“Billy:Not really pleasant, then there is still a lot to be reckoned with on the Earth, because it is indeed inevitable that such meteors and comets will also penetrate the habitable zone, that is, the ‘green zone’ or so-called ‘Goldilocks zone’ of the solar system, in which indeed the Earth is located. On this point then also right away the question concerning the prophetically announced red meteor: Does this one also originate from the Oort cloud?
Ptaah:193. That is in fact right, and unless something special arises, that its orbit changes through some unexpectedly emerging factors or that it is altered by the human beings of Earth, then it will come to pass that the prophecies will be fulfilled.”
The “dark star” which I think would be classed as brown dwarf as we call them moving close to the Oort cloud caused the meteor to deviate from its original path and set in course the chain of events that sent Apophis on the trajectory it is on now. correct me if i am wrong but the “red” part was an indication of threat level similar to red alert on star trek you could say.
I could be wrong, but I don’t think that’s what Miroslav is saying.
“Redder asteroids are expected to have formed much further from the sun; one population of these is known as the Cold Classical trans-Neptunian objects found beyond the orbit of Pluto”
Yes that may be true, i don’t know how the composition of meteors change relative to where they formed or even how they formed, I’ve never been a fan of the dust conglomerate idea. I was just saying specifically that it was not a Neptunian Trojan. Maybe you can help me find something Melissa, im looking for evidence the earth has increased in size in the contact reports. It is relevant.
If I’m reading this right, This object is neither the “Destroyer” nor the “Red Meteor”…but something else?
…it is the Red Meteor from Prophecies aka Apophis…
Thank you, I haven’t read to deeply into this, but now I see the light :)…
Michael’s “co-discovered” link reads the following regarding the size of Apophis:
Apophis is about 1,100 feet (340 meters) in width.
When Dave asked me “What is the exact size of Apophis, and how do you know it is accurate? Have you been there to measure it? I told him it’s about 350 metres as Billy had stated.
In another conversation he brought up the subject again and said “But more importantly, you once again failed to address the issue that Apophis is not spherical, and failed to produce the “exact size” according to Billy Meier.
How come the article published by NASA can give a close approximation, but Billy has to provide its “exact size”? Did Dave want Billy to his job and cater to him?
When Michael first joined in the communication, he came in with a big white blanket of abundant evidence. I find this approach very efficient because anything after that is about ego or other negative feelings.
Thank you, Michael for once again providing me with calm and comfort while I asked myself “How can this be? I thought I was with a professional person”.
You’re welcome Brigitte and thank you for all of your outreach.
The kind of mediocrity that we see with these “scientists” would probably be startling to the real scientists of a few decades ago.
It certainly doesn’t bode well for our future and, considering what Billy Meier has already foretold, our chances of finding those very rare, clear-thinking, self-honest, true scientists…are pretty slim.
I agree.
You’ve both done a wonderful job of showing just what we are up against.
If people only knew the amount of stupidity, arrogance and low-brow insults that are flung at Michael, Brigitte and others, they would cringe. The truth makes people angrier than a stirred up hornet’s nest.
As I always say “this world has alot of growing up to do!”
Specifically, when they have preconceived notions based in impossibility or at best improbability.
It’s a shame that so many of them are incapable of investigating anything that lies outside of their direct material reality.
What gets me is that they will ridicule religion and religious believers, but they behave in the same manner with their own beliefs. They just call it by a different name, but the results are the same – stagnation, inhibition of progress, restriction, constriction and adherence to prescribed ways of thinking and false philosophies, ideologies, etc.
Not only did Billy predict the asteroid, he also predicted what science would name it when they finally caught up with him. They named it exactly what he foretold. These so called educated people don’t understand what copyright means. Form PA-17 from the library , it’s checked against a huge data base , and entered into the library of Congress. I have five volumes myself of lyrics I wrote in the 1990s. Copyright means you are first to put words in a certain order. It’s not rocket science. Imagine the prophet lives among us and the scientific community is oblivious. The level of stupid just confirms the degeneration of society.
The irony is that this so-called “expert” is supposed to be logical (it’s what scientists are supposed to be anyway), especially considering he thinks so highly of himself that he’s modeled his responses – and probably his whole life – from a FICTIONAL character.
So, he appears to live in fantasy land, which indicates, he’s not all there in his head. Tells me all I need to know about this degenerate. This individual is proof that there are too many oxygen thieves on this planet.
Salome,
Charles
Paul Sutter wrote this article titled “Humans Could Go the Way of the Dinosaurs” in connection to asteroids that will land on Earth. Since he doesn’t know when it’s bound to happen I sent him the blog info.